Brands, Bias & the Lies We Buy with Dr. Sonya Grier

Jackie Ferguson - 00:00:10:

Welcome to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox, the podcast where bold ideas meet inspiring stories brought to you by The Diversity Movement. I'm Jackie Ferguson, author, investor, business leader, and human rights advocate. Each episode, I sit down with trailblazers, game changers, and boundary pushers to uncover their journeys, insights, and strategies for success. Whether it's innovation, inclusion, or personal growth, we're here to ignite meaningful conversations that empower and inspire. Thank you for joining me today. Let's get started. Welcome to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. Today, we're joined by Dr. Sonya Grier, Eminent Scholar Chair in marketing at American University's Kogod School of business. With a career spanning policy, academia, and industry, Dr. Grier is a leading expert in how race and marketing intersect. She has won the American Marketing Association's Thomas Kinnear Prize for Scholarly Excellence five times more than any other scholar and has been researching these issues for over 30 years. We'll discuss how race shapes consumer behavior, marketing strategies, and the broader marketplace. Dr. Grier, thank you for joining the show.

Dr. Sonya Grier - 00:01:31:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. Of course. I'm excited to be here.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:01:34:

I'm glad that you're here. Well, let's start with your background. Tell us a little about what inspired your interest in marketing and how did your journey lead you to focus on race in the marketplace?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:01:47:

Okay, so I really kind of fell into marketing. In high school, junior year of high school, I participated in a program called Leadership Education and Development. Which is a program to introduce high school students to careers in business. It still exists today. And so I spent a month on the campus of Columbia University studying issues of business and visiting companies. And I remember visiting, you know, meeting people like Ernesta Procope. Who was one of the first Black Women to start the largest Black-owned insurance firm. And I remember she talked a lot about making money but also using that money to invest in the community. And so it gave me a sense of the ways that business could be used. And in that program, I think marketing was really fascinating to me because it was both art and science. It was kind of left brain and right brain. And it really covered so many different aspects of business. And when I went to college, although I didn't study business, I studied political science and research methodology. I think research had really caught my eye and I was also an African American Studies major. And so I've always sort of been thinking both about research and about race in a lot of ways. When I went into my graduate program at Northwestern, I started to make a lot of observations about race in the marketplace, although I wasn't calling it that. So, for example, I noticed that we didn't have cases that talked about Black businesses or talked about my consumer behavior. So for example, we would always do the suave case. In class and talk about how everyone washed their hair every day. Well, I didn't wash my hair every day. And for me to bring up a lot of these disruptions in class, as often the only Black person there. In class, you know, that was something you would be doing all the time. So that really led me to initiate an independent study with a faculty member and another student to understand why we had no Black professors and why we weren't having Black cases and thinking about all of these issues. And so we did interviews with undergraduates and identified a marketing plan for Kellogg to increase their students of color in the doctoral program. And in the next year, we had one of the largest number of Black doctoral students, including me. So that's how I got into that program. So I would say these types of things really set the stage for me to understand how consumer research could be really powerful and marketing as well to help empower people and do things beyond making profit to really help make communities and institutions better.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:04:42:

Absolutely. Now, Dr. Grier, you've worked, as I said in the intro, across policy, academia, and in the private sector as well. How have these diverse experiences shaped your approach to understanding race and consumer behavior?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:04:58:

I would say that my exposure to these different experiences, or at the Federal Trade Commission, I worked with lawyers and economists. In the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Health and Society Scholars Program, I worked with public health scholars, practitioners, and medical professionals. And so this has really allowed me to see and understand the similarities of race across these different markets. So I think the exposure to the functioning of race and its role in these different markets across a Diversity of context has really sharpened my understanding of race and honed my ability to think about strategies from a more holistic perspective. So, for example, I could see the underlying similarities of challenges across target marketing when I worked at Kraft, my dissertation research, which was conducted in South Africa, my research on food marketing in Black Communities and health disparities that I did in the RWJ program, the marketing of entertainment violence to youth, which I studied at the FTC, and didn't focus on race, but we know that youth of color spend significantly more time with media. So if there were any effects, those effects were stronger. And then my ongoing research around issues like shopping discrimination and the lack of faculty diversity. So seeing the similarities in the functioning of race across these different markets really helped me to think about it from a much broader and nuanced perspective to think about more innovative and comprehensive solutions.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:06:42:

Got it. That makes sense. Now let's talk about your MBA independent study research, which you mentioned helped attract one of the largest cohorts of Black doctoral students. What did you uncover in that research and what lessons can institutions learn from that research today?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:07:01:

It was over 25 years ago. But I will say that one thing that I really remember to this day is that the undergraduates thought professors were nerds. Down to the stereotypes about, you know, patches on the corduroy blazers and all that type of thing. But I do think we learn some things that are really important. And one is that you need to focus on what the audience values and not what you value. You know, oftentimes institutions, and even in this case trying to recruit students, you're saying these are the benefits of this job. These are the things that will be of value to you. Well, the things that are of value to an institution aren't always what's of value to that person you're trying to recruit. So you really have to understand what is going to appeal to them. I think another thing that we learned is that awareness and opportunities are not always equally distributed. Not everyone knew and understood the benefits of getting a PhD, of being a faculty member, of teaching and research in the way that it was often presented. And so I think it's really important to understand your audience. And our research really highlighted how audience-centric marketing is essential, but it's often overlooked. You know, we often come, institutions, organizations, marketers come from what they have identified are the benefits, what they think is going to resonate with this target audience, and that's not always the case. So I would say that's something that's really stuck with me, and I sort of push that everywhere. I talk about practical marketing in my classes, et cetera, that you've got to understand the target audience. You really have to understand their needs, their desires, their likes, their life, and the context in which they live in order to get them to change their behavior or to do something that you want them to do, whether it's buy a product, use your service, et cetera.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:09:01:

That makes sense, Dr. Grier. You know, one of the things that has evolved in marketing over the last 20 years is it used to be a situation where diverse marketing was its own kind of little project within the broader marketing scope. And what we've discovered is that's not the right approach, right? As our society is evolving and becoming more and more diverse. And it's so interconnected that marketing for different audiences is a part of the broader marketing strategy. And so that's so important. Let's talk about Race in the Marketplace Research Network. So that's something that you co-founded. Can you share the mission behind the initiative and how it is driving meaningful change?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:09:54:

Yes. So the Race in the Marketplace Research Network, I co-founded with two colleagues in 2015, and it's dedicated to really supporting and advancing critical research, transdisciplinary research on race and markets. And our mission is to address systemic racial inequities in global marketplaces. And so I said a mouthful there, but I think there are a couple of things that are really important. One is transdisciplinary. So transdisciplinary means that you're thinking not only about multiple disciplines. So we look at marketing, sociology, psychology, finance, economics, et cetera, but also bring in insights from policymakers and from marketing practice. So thinking outside of the academic box and really trying to integrate all of these different stakeholders and understandings into the way we think about research. I think another important piece is global. We just had our third conference in South Africa, Cape Town, South Africa, with a very global group of scholars, practitioners, policymakers, and everyday people as well who just wanted to come. And this is very different than many conferences about race, may not think about it globally, or they may not think about the marketplace. So we have this unique position of bringing these things together and really promoting international collaboration around these issues. We create meaningful change, I would say, in a few ways. One is that we have really helped to shape the discourse. You know, in business, race was not really talked about. Especially when I came up through the Ph.D. Program, the MBA program. And so there wasn't this discussion and narrative about it. So as we have put it on the table and made it more of an agenda item, we have also helped to really shape the discourse around it. We also create forums for opportunities to discuss this research and for scholars to talk about it. One of the things that came out of our last conference is many people said, you know, this really felt like a safe space. I can't tell you, every conference we've said, people say, this is the best conference I've ever been to. And so I think the opportunity to be able to focus on your research and not all the other political stuff. That can go around talking about race or having to explain why race is important. For half of your presentation, you know, everyone comes to this conference knowing race is important. And we also provide materials. So anyone can go right now on our website, rimnetwork.net, and download our open access book, which talks about race in the marketplace all around the world. In different venues, it talks about everything from skin lightening to matrimonial issues in India, to the Roma in France, to Black youth and corner stores, or the history of market research and how that's tied with issues of race. And so we help to not only create research, but disseminate it in ways for a much broader understanding.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:13:17:

That's great. Now, Dr. Grier, you said, you know, in your Conferences, you don't have to spend half the time explaining why race is important. In this context. But let's take a moment with that, if we can, and talk about, right, for those leaders in marketing who still may not understand why this is vital. Can you take a moment and just describe why the work that you're doing and understanding of race and its impact in the marketplace matters more broadly?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:13:58:

Race and racism really has an impact on every piece of the marketplace. You know, when we begin, first of all, companies don't make strategies. People make strategies. So people come from their own experience and beliefs and understandings. And so if we start from just that basic piece of truth, then we also know that there's not a diverse representation in many companies. So the understandings and perspectives that are being embedded into the strategies that are being made. Don't capture the full range of the marketplace that we have. We also know that racism influences in a systemic way. What happens today. So if we think about the housing market and the financial markets, a lot of the issues related to that stem from things like redlining. Which was government-sponsored discrimination and racism. So we also have to think about history is embedded into the things that we do today in the form of policies and practices in the marketplace. And so the way in which race has an influence needs to be recognized in order to really disrupt it. And I think, you know, for a long time, we would see these one-offs. Oh, here's a controversial advertisement in the company apologizes. Ooh, there's this store racial profile and then the company pays a lawsuit from a person. But when you look at the pattern of the same thing happening over and over in different locations, in different markets, and around the world, you have to really at some point think about how do we get to a root level understanding of this so we can change it and make markets more equitable.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:15:55:

Absolutely. And you've served on multiple advisory boards, Dr. Grier, related to marketing race and public health. How does race impact consumer well-being? And what role does marketing play in either improving or exacerbating the disparities?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:16:15:

I think marketing is a tool. And it can do either way with intentional and strategic use. It can help to disrupt and break down. Issues or it can reinforce racism and issues that are there. So I've done quite a bit of work in food marketing. And one of the things when you look at food marketing to Black and Latino communities is that that marketing tends to emphasize low nutrition, high calorie foods that potentially contribute to health disparities. And the marketing also means that healthy foods tend to be less available and more expensive. And so these are things that we know from research over the last couple of decades where marketing has a huge negative influence. At the same time, it's not just physical health. It's also financial health. So there have been studies that show that Black and Latino consumers applying for business loans or entrepreneurs applying for business loans get different amounts of information, different types of information, and are less likely to get the loan. And so that's race filtering into people's decision processes about what is appropriate. And so race has an impact on physical well-being, mental well-being. That particular study that I mentioned also showed that people felt more depressed and sad around not getting the loan because of those types of issues. So the possibility for marketing to help create more equitable practices in the marketplace and more positive outcomes for people well-being can come from that strategic and intentional use of marketing.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:18:02:

Got it. Your article in The Conversation discusses why business school efforts to recruit diverse faculties are failing. What are some of the key barriers that you're seeing, Dr. Grier, and what strategies do you believe could have an impact to improve those?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:18:21:

I think, you know, when we talk about recruitment, and this goes back to even that independent study I did at Kellogg, you know, this notion of understanding people from where they are, you know, we have policies and procedures that are on paper, but they are implemented, again, by individuals who bring their own subjective beliefs about what is good research, what is merit, what is fit, who do I want to have a beer with after we get out of teaching in those things factor into the process. And I think a real understanding of how those things factor into the process becomes important. So in this project I did with my colleague, Sonja Poole, we interviewed Black and Hispanic professors who had served on recruiting committees, often as the only one that were trying to bring in other faculty of color. So they were able to see both from having been through the process themselves as well as being on the committee what some of the issues were. One of the major barriers is the fact that Diversity is really poorly understood. You know, we don't, you don't typically get a definition of what Diversity means. And when schools are looking to hire a more diverse faculty, they're often thinking about underrepresented minorities. In that case, Black and Hispanic. But the people we interviewed would say, my colleagues think we're diverse because We've got LGBTQ+ and international people. And we also found that they would say that those types of certain types of Diversity were prioritized. Well, if we can get a woman, then that's, you know, that's a good thing that we've done.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:20:04:

Check the box.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:20:04:

We've checked that box. Right. And so checking the box becomes an issue without really understanding and thinking about what Diversity means and why it's important. I think another important factor is that often the type of work that faculty of color do isn't valued in the same way. So Black and Latino faculty are often mentoring students who are rare in that environment as well and helping to support them. Or they're serving on the diversity committees. But then when you get there to interview, what's most important is your research. What research have you done? And so these places that people spend a lot of time to support students, to support the institution, and sometimes to support their own spirit in doing something that feels good for themselves, for supporting their community, isn't valued in the same way. So I think institutions, universities really need to recognize these subtle and nuanced barriers and really help to define Diversity. Really think about and evaluate the criteria they use and see if it really is colorblind or if it is embedded with historical influence. For example, I'll give you one last example. One of the things we found is that committees look for top rated journals. Well, a lot of these journals don't necessarily include or haven't historically included topics around race, which a lot of Black and Latino scholars will study. And so that means it's harder for them to meet that standard. So re-evaluating criteria and thinking about how it might be embedded with some subtle things that help to keep people out is one another way that institutions can help to diversify their faculty. Because it's really it's important not only for just having a diverse faculty, but students. For students to have the kind of diverse perspectives and education that any type of business needs when they get to the marketplace as employees.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:22:23:

Absolutely. That's helpful. Dr. Greer, let's switch gears a little bit and talk about your hometown of Detroit. It has a very rich history of cultural influence and resilience. How did growing up there shape your perspective on race, marketing, and the community?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:22:42:

I'm definitely a proud Detroiter. And I believe that growing up in Detroit really did shape the way I think about race in the marketplace. One, there's such a diverse representation of Black people. You know, to begin with. So Detroit really offers this unique view of people across all socioeconomic levels, you know, everything from the janitor to the teacher to the doctor to the lawyer to the rocket scientist. And so seeing that you grow up with a real nuanced understanding of racial identity, you know, it's not just one homogeneous view around race. Because of the segregation in Detroit, I think I became really conscious of racial dynamics at an early age. It made these types of racial dynamics really, they were firsthand insights into how race could influence the marketplace and everyday life. And like you said, Detroit also has a real rich history of community activism around issues of trying to push for equality and better living conditions and more equity in the marketplace. And I think seeing that growing up and over the years really has instilled in me an appreciation for resilience and the importance of advocacy.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:24:13:

That's great. And you know, it's so interesting, the different perspectives you can get from being or growing up in different parts of the country. So that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing that.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:24:24:

Thank you. That's a very interesting question. I've never been asked that.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:24:29:

Dr. Grier, with the introduction of AI and digital marketing evolving so rapidly, what are your thoughts on how businesses can ensure their marketing strategies are equitable and don't reinforce those racial biases?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:24:49:

Well, AI has really transformed marketing, but like marketing, it's a tool.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:24:56:

Right.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:24:56:

And it's not a neutral tool in its implementation because it's embedded with the biases from the data that it learns from. So AI is trained on data sets that are curated by humans. So it inevitably inherits that and sometimes can amplify the racial disparities that come from that. So I think it's really important at the outset for companies to recognize and acknowledge that marketing algorithms are shaped by these patterns that are already inequitable. So if you're feeding in data about consumer behavior or media representation or economic data, that data is already reflecting equities that are embedded in history. And so I think businesses have to be really intentional about evaluating and judging that data. So human oversight is really essential to begin with. AI doesn't think on its own. It processes data and it detects patterns, but you need humans for that judgment. So that it doesn't tend to amplify stereotypes or further reflect bias. You want to make sure that the outputs are going to align with more ethical and inclusive values for one, I think it's also important to understand how AI thinks and where it gets it wrong. So AI hallucinates. And I love that term because it's, you know, it's great. It will tell you, it will spit out something that sounds reasonable and makes sense, but it's just dead wrong. And so, again, that's where the human insight is really important and also really making sure that there aren't hallucinations that help to support and reinforce or spread stereotypes. So companies really have to actively question and be critical of this output, not just take it wholesale. And it needs to be reviewed with a critical eye because we've seen incidents where it's not transparent. And I would say transparent is something that's also important. So companies, hospitals are using AI systems to determine whether or not someone might get their surgery paid for without people even knowing it. And just think if it's hallucinating in these life and death situations in terms of health care access. So there really has to be human oversight with a critical eye towards these AI systems.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:27:38:

Absolutely. And prompt engineering, it's so important, as you said, for people that are using AI to understand how to create inputs that can combat the bias, right? So that you're not hallucinating and you're not getting those inputs or those outputs rather that are centered on biased inputs. So it's very important that how you ask the questions, the data that you put into your platform is so important to be critical of that. So that your outputs are better and then you put that same critical eye on the outputs as well. I totally agree there.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:28:24:

Yeah, and students have to be trained in this as well.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:28:28:

Yes.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:28:28:

Our business school has gone all out on AI and there are other groups that say, you know, using AI can be unethical and this and that. It's out there. The genie's out the box.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:28:40:

Right.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:28:40:

And so the goal is really to understand how it's used and to make sure that students learn how to use it in an ethical and inclusive way so that as they move into the marketplace as employees, we won't see the same things over and over, see the same types of controversies or reinforcement of stereotypes.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:29:01:

Absolutely. Dr. Grier, you've conducted extensive research on food marketing and its impact on public health, particularly in diverse communities. What are some of the most alarming trends that you've seen and how can marketers shift toward more ethical practices there?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:29:20:

I think there's a lot of research, not think, I know there's a lot of research. In fact, the last couple of decades of research that really shows, as I mentioned earlier, that marketing strategies targeted to communities of color really emphasize, you know, low nutrition, high calorie types of products. And they create environments where healthy food is less accessible and less affordable. We also know that these environments influence consumers' behavior and their feelings and perceptions towards certain types of food. At the same time, an interesting point is that consumers of color tend to be more positive towards targeted marketing. And so that means that strategies around this can be resisted. And that can make companies say, well, there's no problem with it. You hear companies will say, well, there's demand for these products. Without thinking about the fact that marketing strategies build on a context that is already there. If the context is a food desert that does not have grocery stores and you are a fast food brand that's promoting low nutrition food with very low prices where other types of food are not accessible, that's important from an ethical perspective to think about it. You know, is that the kind of company you want to be and is that how you want to make your money? So I think companies have to really think about how they can use the persuasive power of marketing to better promote healthier products, to promote them and provide access in different ways. I think about when I lived in Philly and was in the RWJ program, there was a fruit truck that went around to different neighborhoods and everything was a dollar in these bags. And so that's a different type of access, and I think we're starting to see these alternative distribution methods from innovative companies to find other ways than the standard approaches to meet communities and target audiences where they are. And I think that's probably a theme of everything I said, really understanding the context in which people are embedded and their situatedness. So that your marketing strategies not only build on what it is you need to make profit from a monetary perspective, but also build social profit and build healthy communities that bring you healthy employees who can continue to buy your product.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:32:02:

That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Dr. Grier, what are some of the biggest misconceptions that companies have when it comes to marketing to diverse audiences? And how can they avoid common pitfalls there?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:32:17:

I believe that one of the biggest misconceptions still, particularly when you think about communities of color or even women or disabled communities, that they're homogeneous. That you can reach all consumers of X with the same strategy. And that's not true. I even see companies talking about reaching consumers of color.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:32:40:

Right.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:32:40:

What are consumers of color? And what are you trying to resonate with? That just, you know, really doesn't make sense. I think another misconception is that you don't have to think about the context. Both socially and practically in terms of what's going on. You know, I think about that Pepsi commercial. My students always bring it up, the one with the police during civil unrest and the Pepsi makes the policeman happy and everything's all good. That ignored sort of everything that was going on, the nature of civil unrest, the way in which those interactions were happening. It wasn't realistic and people called it out. And so I think that it's important to really think about segments in much more intersectional ways. And I think there has been an increased emphasis from companies on intersectionality. Let's think about the intersection of race with gender and religion and income and all of these other issues. And that will help companies to get to a much more nuanced perspective. Not that they have to individually target each of those groups, although they can in certain ways with increased technology. It's the whole notion of understanding and creating among your employees an understanding of how people are differently situated, of how the context has. An impact on that and developing strategies that can be creative and innovative and help people to be better off.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:34:18:

Absolutely. So as someone who's been studying race in the marketplace for such a long time, how has The Conversation evolved over time, Dr. Grier? Are we seeing progress or do the same fundamental issues persist?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:34:35:

I think both are true. I would have to say that. I mean, The Conversation on race and marketing has really involved significantly over the last 30 years. There's been progress made, but there's also some of the same fundamental issues that persist. So, for example, you know, one of my first studies was an examination of marketplace experiences, customer service experiences of Black men. I interviewed Black men about their shopping experiences. I just said, tell me about what happens, you know, and these were some of the saddest interviews I had ever heard. This is 1996 around being followed in stores, being asked for multiple pieces of identification and the way in which they coped. Well, I don't want to get the police called on me, so I'll make a joke or I dress up. All these types of things, that issue of retail racial profiling still exists. Sephora did a huge study around retail racism in order to uncover what some of these foundations were maybe four or five years ago. And so, over these 30 years, that issue has evolved in that it's discussed much more in the broader marketplace. But fundamentally, it still happens to people when they go into stores. You know, we've seen progress in representation and buying power. You know, consumers of color are now thought about as consumers of color. You know, whereas beforehand in the RIM book, we have a chapter that talks about market research really being, you know, about white consumers. For a long time, there was the general market. The general market was known for the white market. And then there were ethnic markets. Now we talk more about consumers and specific configurations and, like I said, intersectionality. And I think there's a larger understanding of the need for Diversity in marketing. But we still have companies making big snafus, stereotypical, offensive advertising and apologizing and moving on. And so the answer for me, I hope that gives you a sense, is really both. I don't disagree at all that we have made progress, but there are also still some fundamental changes. And now as we see these rollbacks around DEI, we really have to think about, you know, are the students of the future, for example, going to be prepared to intervene in these markets and have the understanding of why Diversity is needed or have we taken several steps back in that case?

Jackie Ferguson - 00:37:22:

Absolutely. And Dr. Grier, let's talk about these rollbacks on DEI in the marketplace. What are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on how the consumer is kind of, there are some light boycotts here or there for a day or a week. What are your thoughts on the way that companies need to continue to think about DEI? And then from the consumer perspective, what should we be doing?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:37:53:

From the corporate perspective, I think companies are showing their true colors, to put it mildly, when they roll back on pronouncements they've just made. So that gives consumers a sense of the authenticity of those efforts that all came about in 2020 and 2021. And companies made all these statements about we now stand for DEI. If they are going to shift in the wind because the political winds changed, then I think that tells you a lot about those companies. And I think consumers really have to look at themselves and reflect on, are these the companies I want to buy from and support with my hard-earned dollars? Things are getting much more expensive. And I think that decision making around who I want to support and how I support them and why I support them becomes that much more significant for consumers at this moment in time.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:38:57:

Absolutely. So Dr. Grier, as a five-time recipient of the AMA's Thomas Kinnear Prize for Scholarly Excellence, you've made a real impact in your field. But what's next for you? What areas of research are you most excited about in the future?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:39:13:

Interestingly, you know, I came into this, I think you probably have a sense, I was all about research. And teaching was something you got to do to help so you could keep continue to do your research. I have really kind of fallen in love with teaching. And part of it may be because I teach a course now called race in the marketplace. You know, so I get to teach my research and talk about that as well. But it's also helped me to understand the importance of teaching and the importance of knowledge. Everything from the faculty diversity issues I've mentioned to not having cases in my business classes has really driven me to focus on research around how do we best integrate issues of Diversity and race. Into the marketing and business school classroom. So I have several projects that look particularly at that, developing a framework around how you teach race in the marketplace based on the last four years of teaching this class. I have a project that looks at titles of courses where we had students run some experiments around looking at race in the marketplace versus equity in the marketplace and multiculturalism in the marketplace because people respond to different things and each resonates with different types of students and how do you figure out how it's going to bring people so that you're talking beyond the choir in these classrooms. Because it's really important to create an inclusive classroom in order to share and disseminate that knowledge in the marketplace. I'm also continuing my research on investigating racial disparities across different types of markets. Right now, I've started to look at the personal care industry. Because there's a lot of toxic products, you know, this sort of brings in notions of thinking about the environment, as well as how it impacts us on a personal level, there's a lot of toxic products that are marketed to Black women and women of color more generally. And so I'm looking at the role of marketing in that and how that influences our physical well-being in ways that could have long-lasting negative impacts and what are ways that we can change that, increase awareness, going back to consumer savvy around the types of products that they buy, but also in terms of structural interventions by companies.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:41:39:

Wow. So interesting. Dr. Grier, for leaders, marketers, and future change makers listening today, what's the one piece of advice that you'd give them about using marketing as a force for equity and positive change?

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:41:56:

As you know, marketing can really be a powerful tool for equity and social change. You have to do it thoughtfully. It can be used to empower consumers. So I think you want to make your marketing more than one particular campaign. It's not just a one-off. That you want to think about how your marketing efforts could be a seed that grows a garden full of not only products and services, but also of empowerment that provides opportunities and ways for people to support their own and others' well-being.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:42:33:

Absolutely. Dr. Grier, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting and eye-opening conversation. Thank you for your research and for what you're doing for our communities through that research. And I really enjoyed The Conversation. Thanks for being here today.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:42:47:

Thank you. I did too. You asked some very interesting questions.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:42:49:

Thank you.

Dr. Sonya Grier 00:42:50:

I appreciate it.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:42:51:

Thanks, Dr. Grier. Thank you for listening to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. This episode is produced by Walk West. If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with someone who inspires you and leave us a review to help others discover the show. Follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn to join our growing community of change makers. Until next time, keep pushing boundaries and building a world where everyone belongs. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.