Compilation: Best of Season 6

Jackie Ferguson - 00:00:10:
You're listening to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox Podcast. I'm Jackie Ferguson, certified diversity
executive, writer, human rights advocate, and co-founder of The Diversity Movement. On this show, I talk
with trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share their inspiring stories, lessons
learned, and insights on business, inclusion, and personal development. And last season was full of some
amazing stories and lessons. So as we look forward to season seven beginning next week, I hope you'll
enjoy some of my favorite moments from season six. And of course, if you hear a piece of a conversation
that you've missed, be sure to go back and listen to the full episode. Thanks for listening.
Bradley Schurman - 00:01:04:
So we're entering into a new period for humankind where our societies are getting quite old. And this is
happening because of two colliding trends, or mega trends. The first is that we're having a lot fewer babies
than ever before. Our birth rates are really at their lowest point in human history in most of the Western
world, and also in parts of the Eastern world as well. Europe in particular, but also the United States,
Canada, large swaths of Latin America, as well as most of East Asia. It's really quite shocking how birth
rates have just plummeted from place to place. In fact, the only places you'll find really high birth rates right
now are on the African continent, and a few tiny little countries in Latin America. But on the whole, birth rates
are down. The second thing is, is that due to scientific innovation, social innovation, clean water, access to
food. We have an incredibly high survival rate now through childhood. Many of us live into adulthood more
than ever before. And this is allowing us to live much longer lives because of it on average. So the super
age is when one out of five people in a society are over the age of 65. This is a UN designation. It's
accepted. But for a long period of time, it was really considered being negative. It was just like, this is when
the wheels fall off the bus folks. Like this is when all the problems hit us at once. And the reason for that is
because for most of human history, you've had a lot of young people at the bottom of a pyramid and very
few people at the top. The young people held up the few old people. Well, today that's really squared off.
And in some countries that's actually inverting. So if we don't change the way we do our business, if we
change the way we do our work, if we're not more inclusive of older populations in our economy, in our
society, then that pyramid will tip over. It just can't hold itself up anymore. So that forces us to challenge a lot
of historical bias about older populations and to really be intentional about inclusion, including them in work
and in the community.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:03:24:
Bradley, when we think about your organization, can you describe how your work with companies helped
them recognize the trends and how do you help them navigate this super age and the changing
demographics in the workplace?
Bradley Schurman - 00:03:40:
Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest challenges is that this, this, this my company requires a lot of education.
And that's a big reason why I wrote the book was to get that education piece out there so people would
understand what demographic change means for their bottom line. And for most organizations, we like to
start with the workforce. Let me be clear about this. A lot of these trends that we were predicting were
coming 10, 15 years out just a few years ago, and then the pandemic hit. And the pandemic really is a truly
transformative, a truly disruptive event for society. So most of these things that we were expecting in 2030,
maybe 2035, happened in the past two years.

Guest 2 - 00:04:28:
One of the biggest mistakes we make is rush towards superficial solutions that often do not attack the
problem at the roots and as a result can actually end up being more about how you maintain the system's
status grow rather than change it. And so that one of the things that we believe is that we have to be willing
to live with conflict often for a while, even sometimes escalate it as we also work to see what agreements
are possible. We're certainly not against the agreement where there really are agreements possible, but we
believe these need to be seen in the context as a context of a longer process. And this is particularly true if

you're dealing with issues such as misogyny, racism, homophobia, things on that nature, because there are
a lot of agreements that could simply be made about a superficial manifestation that don't get out what's
really going on.
Guest 3 - 00:05:31:
I guess our obsession with neutrality and trying to stay a little bit detached and be objective prevents us from
raising and engaging with conflict in ways that are actually constructive and conducive to make really
institutional change. I think there tends to be a focus on things like communicating effectively or drawing on
people through communication. And I think communication is not the same as connection. And I think
communication is far more important and far more long lasting. And because we are trying to focus on being
neutral, we hold ourselves back from really connecting with the person on the other end of our point of view
or perspective or the person we're in conflict with. And we end up with band-aid solutions or things that don't
really address systemic change that maybe potentially can address the problem for this one person because
we are finding a loophole or running around and making some sort of adaptation so that we make it work for
that person. But the root of the conflict continues to be there. And I think in many ways that we need to start
valuing more connection and seeing communication as a way of connecting and not necessarily as a way of
trying to understand each other. Because I've also found that that prevents us or holds us back from caring.
And I think caring is more important than understanding.
Guest 4 - 00:07:03:
We aren't taught what it means to be a really good teammate and value someone over yourself for a bigger
picture. Like we don't really talk about that in the workspace in any spaces. And I think that I like, there were
times I think back in high school, I was the worst teammate. I see some of the videos I'm like, oh God, 16
year old Jen was such a bad teammate. Like it just, I was so bad. And then thinking about in college, you
know, wanting to be captain but not fully holistically understand what it meant to be a captain, just wanting
the title. And so I think, you know, one of the things coming out is what does it mean to be a really good
teammate and understanding that maybe your role isn't at the front of the line, but it's at the back cheering
for people and supporting people. You know, I think about at Illinois, I was a volunteer assistant. I was like
the lowest of the low on the totem pole. And the head coach then who's at Stanford now, Kevin, he was
great with me. And, but also letting me know, this is your role within the program. And I think many times
people can't develop to be good teammates, the coaches, or whoever it is doesn't tell them the role on the
program. And Kevin Hambly was great at being like, this is gonna be your role. This is what we expect. But
also this is how your role, even though you might not be on the court, is gonna help create this amazing
culture. And people aren't really told of how much it can help change a school, change a program. You
know, if you're staying on the bench, you're not doing the things you want. And so I think, you know, being a
really good teammate, and if you take it to the office setting, what that looks like, and the nuances of it, I
think was a really beneficial lesson.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:08:38:
Absolutely. And you're right. There are so many courses that we take in college about learning how to
operate in business. But being a good teammate should be one of those classes and something that is a
competency because it's so important in accomplishing whatever the organizational goals are. Sometimes
you have to take a backseat and that's good advice for all of us.
Guest 4 - 00:09:05:
To be a good teammate, you have to understand your relationship to conflict. And so in my sessions, I've
been talking more about conflict and I think that we don't talk about our relationship to conflict because I
think we can attest that we have people in our lives who are great humans until it goes bad. And once it
goes bad, you see a side of them and you're like, whoa, who is this person that has come out and is being
reckless with their words or like, who are you? But because they aren't used to conflict, they go zero to a
thousand. And so I think a part of being a good teammate, good manager, you have to understand your
relationship to conflict.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:09:45:
When we think about it, right? We all are downloading that internet checklist of how to roll out a new change.
And, you know, just the same with like as a practitioner of DEI. Everything is custom, right? You really have
to get into an organization and understand how that organization operates, what the sentiment is, how they
move. And if you're not doing that with change in general, right? You're downloading that checklist from the
internet and going through the steps. You're not understanding the nuance of each organization being
different, because as you said, the people are different. That's so important. I love that. Change leadership,
not change management.
Nancy Murphy - 00:10:32:
Yes. Awesome.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:10:34:
Nancy, tell us what some of the hardest shifts are to make in an organization based on the work you do.
Nancy Murphy - 00:10:42:
Well, I think as you just said, every organization is different. So I don't know that there's necessarily a
specific universal shift that's hardest to make. But I would say some characteristics are any sort of shift that
hits closest to the power centers inside the organization, or that's emotionally charged or closely tied to
someone's identity. And this can be, you know, I think probably your listener's brains are going to a few
things that might seem obvious in that regard. Like equity and inclusion and diversity policies and practices,
for example. I was just thinking that. But also even things like an automation or a new software of some kind
can be tied to someone's identity for a variety of reasons that may not be as obvious, right? So really paying
attention to that. And anything that has lots of artifacts associated with it that reinforce the status quo.
Guest 6 - 00:11:59:
One of the reasons I started my consulting company was because I had a really horrible workplace
experience. And that was the foundation of all four of my LGBTQ books was this is how not to treat an
LGBTQ worker, basically, or an employee. And this was back in like, 2004. So this was like almost 20 years
ago at this point. And it was just a really toxic work environment broadly, like with the beauty of hindsight
and being able to kind of reflect back. It was just a toxic work environment all around. I just happened to be
on the receiving end of all the homophobic remarks. And they weren't even like shy about it. My boss, who
was a director, told me, said behind my back, but with an earshot on my second day working there, that I
had the captain of the softball team lesbian look about me. Like that was literally word for word, what came
out of her mouth. And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a fun environment. And so I tried for five and a half years,
I managed to stay in that company. Literally it was from day one, I had this issue. And I tried for five and a
half years to figure out how I could create, like change the culture from the inside. And it was just a
completely futile effort. So I went to quit and the CEO was like, we can't lose you. Cause I was running the
marketing department and then he was like, we can't lose you. What can I do to keep you? Like what's
gonna make you happy basically. And I was like, I wanna market to the LGBTQ community. And at first it
was like, he's like, all right, create a presentation and come back to me. And so I took a week, came back to
him and I had a very clear plan for how exactly we would reach the community. And he gave me essentially
a carte blanche to do whatever I wanted. Like he gave me free reign. I went to tons of conferences. That's
when I got involved with the National Gay & Lesbian Chamber of Commerce with IGLTA. Like all kinds of
different organizations. What would happen is that I'm out at like some awesome conference. I remember
one specifically with the IGLTA. It was in Vegas that year. And I remember being at like The Ritz-Carlton at
like some bougie event that they were hosting and being like, this is so good to be around people like me
and I was like in my mid to late twenties and I was like, Oh, great to just be around people like me. And then
I came back to the office and the second I stepped in the office, everybody was like whispering and talking
behind my back because I was just out at a gay conference. And so that was what made me realize like, I
am doing a disservice to my own community by going out and saying to people like, hey, you should do
business with us when I'm getting treated as poorly as I was being treated. So it was that lack of being able

to reconcile what I was saying outwardly and what was happening inwardly that I was like, I can't do this
anymore. I ended up quitting. And that's when I started my consulting company.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:14:42:
And LaTonya, at Change Coaches, your team helps clients create cultures of belonging, as you said, while
also amplifying the voices of the only ones, right? So that they feel valued and engaged. So this is a two-part
question. One, how do companies go about creating those cultures of belonging? And then two, as the only
one or one of a few, how do you navigate the corporate environment successfully when your organization
may not have made that commitment?
LaTonya Wilkins - 00:15:15:
Yeah, so first of all, how do you create a culture of belonging? The way that we work with clients, usually
we'll start with executive teams and then maybe the next level down and we will do some intensive coaching
and learning sessions. We do one on equity, power and privilege. In that workshop, we allow clients to
experience what these words mean. We're not given these definitions and they're to figure out these words.
We actually take them through experiences so they can feel what this means and we're not calling people
out for their privilege. We're saying, okay, we all have privilege, experience it. You tell us what yours is and
you talk about that. I also take them through some team coaching and in that team coaching, that's when
we, in addition to learning, we're exploring at the core of everybody's leadership, how much are they
creating a culture of belonging? What do their structures and systems feel like? I also have them do an
analysis of their network and who are the people who are high potentials. I have them go through, and these
are just a couple examples of activities, but one person, for example, in each team every single time says,
oh, I thought I was inclusive, but when you ask me who I call when there's a problem, it's all white guys.
Right. When you want that informal advice, who you call. So it's through a lot of these types of activities,
through a coach-like way, I question leaders at their core and how they have done leadership. And through
that, through multiple months and years even, that's how we start building cultures of belonging.
Irina Konstantinovsky - 00:17:01:
When leaders look at HR and go like fix my problem, pay more or give me a retention program because
people are leaving, I step back and I'm like, hmm, the solution is usually within leadership. And if you're
engaging with your employees, if you're challenging them at work, if they feel they are doing meaningful
contributions, if they have a path to development, if their diversity is celebrated, that would go way, way, it
would be a much more sustainable and long-term solution than fixing. I mean, pay has to be right. That's
kind of in the hierarchical of needs. That has to be right. But once that is right, putting more in that bucket is
really not taking, not doing the leadership work that has to be done.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:17:50:
Irina, that's so right. And there have been studies that I think it was Harvard Business Review that did a
study around that specifically. And what they found was that employees really want to feel a sense of
belonging and purpose. More than any other thing that you can do, including their salary. And so it's so
important that you create those environments and cultures of inclusion and belonging. That's so important. I
think you hit that right on the head.
Irina Konstantinovsky - 00:18:23:
Fortune just published their best places to work list. And it's a hundred companies where we were named on
the list and I'm so proud that we were. But as you read the research behind, what makes this workplace is
great? It's never paying more money. I mean, that's like, you have to be competitive. You have to pay your
employees, right? It's giving them a sense of purpose. It's giving them a sense of belonging. It's feeling like
you're contributing to an organization. Developing in your careers, all of those things. Go way further than
any other component.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:19:07:
Ashley, can you share some of the trends that you're seeing in business and some of the areas that we as
leaders need to focus on to improve?
Ashley Marchand Orme - 00:19:16:
To answer to this question, I'll point first to an article that my colleague Alison Omens, our Chief Strategy
Officer at JUST, recently wrote. It was an article about how this year is really the year of the S in ESG,
social. Any of your listeners, as we mentioned before, know that ESG stands for environmental, social and
governance issues. And it feels like the S for social has been one of those areas that's just been, like I said
earlier, harder for companies to grapple with. It's a category that includes a lot, so that's maybe part of the
challenge, but it's basically centered around how companies engage with people, whether that be within the
company itself, in the communities that the company touches or in society more broadly. Because of the
work that we're doing here at Just and because of all the other key players in corporate America, like
investors, who are pushing for more focus on social issues, I think that the social part of this, of ESG, is
really the key trend to watch. I even hesitate to call it a trend. I think it's more of a new normal that people
are gonna pay more attention to these issues, especially with Covid-19 and the racial equity movement,
really catalyzing, I think, this hyper focus on how companies are treating people. So the advice in this article
is really for companies to do three things. First, for them to define what S means to their company
specifically, and figure out what it means to actually invest in workers and what that would entail. The
second thing is really that the markets should encourage companies to shift practices toward making those
investments. That means there's a role for stakeholders like investors especially, but also customers and
others to really push companies to focus on these issues. And then finally, it's about ensuring that capital
does actually drive meaningful outcomes, meaningful change. And that's, I think why this theme of
transparency and accountability is just so critical. Something else I'd mentioned to just pay attention to is
really defining in greater detail equity. We talked about defining what the S means overall, but specifically,
especially given my role, wanting companies to focus in more on equity. You know, we're lucky at JUST
Capital. We have a few different things that we're doing on this front to really help companies understand
what equity means for them and what stakeholders expect of companies when it comes to equity, especially
racial equity. One of the things that we're doing is that we've partnered with consulting firm FSG and the
research and action firm PolicyLink as part of this bigger group that we call the Corporate Racial Equity
Alliance. And so the three organizations are on this multi-year journey to research and develop a set of
corporate performance standards around racial equity. And that will touch multiple things like practices
within the company, practices within the community the company engages with, and then more broadly in
society. So we're really trying to paint that picture of what equity looks like and provide targets along the
way, milestones that companies can meet to get toward that vision of being an equitable company. So
definitely think the social issue overall, but then putting a finer pinpoint on equity is gonna be a big trend for
the coming years.
Nicole Furnace - 00:22:43:
I also think finding mentors that I could relate to was very important. And it can be challenging in different
industries and academic settings, but really having someone that you can go to with questions, if you need
guidance on something, you're in these situations you often have never been in before, or you don't have
family members that you can lean on because we don't have these traditional kind of academic or
professional pathways and communities of color. And so a lot of times, if I experienced something
professionally, I couldn't go ask my mom or my father or my aunt, right? Because they've never had a
corporate job. And so having those mentors was really important. And so I think, for me, at this stage in my
career, being able to serve in that role is something that I make time for and I think is really important. But
traditionally in real estate, it is tough to navigate a community where you're often, have very different
experiences in your home life, but also professionally and trying to fit into this industry. And I think a lot of
people of color also are familiar with the term code switching and just kind of going between these two
worlds, again, in a variety of different ways. And that takes an emotional toll out of people. And I think it's
important that employers understand that and understand how to support their employees and also
colleagues. And so again, that's another motivation for my work that I think people a lot of times overlook.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:24:10:

Thanks for sharing that Nicole. Yeah, I think it's so important that people are beginning to understand and
leaders are beginning to understand. The value of belonging, both from a recruiting or retention standpoint,
from an employee morale standpoint, from a business, you know, an economic standpoint, because people
who are more engaged and happier at work are, you know, are more productive, more innovative, which is
important.
Nicole Furnace - 00:24:39:
Right.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:24:40:
But I think it's important that, you know, we recognize that, you know, it's, it's not. Anymore as situation
where you have to just assimilate to the culture. Employees want to feel a sense of belonging and want to
feel like they can bring who they are to the workplace. So that's so important.
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:25:03:
We can evolve to embrace our common humanity, which is really at the root of it. There is no hierarchy of
human value based on skin color or facial features or other aspects of the way our bodies look. We have a
common journey that we're on, and we have to embrace that so that we can solve the big challenges that we
face. And everyone has a right to live the American idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And it's
just not a fair playing field right now.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:25:36:
Absolutely. And Paul, what do you say to people who say? This is just too big a problem. Like how do we,
we can't possibly fix this, right?
Dr. Paul Zeitz - 00:25:51:
I don't agree. I think since the murder of George Floyd, there's been evidence of a national movement of
reparations and radical truth-telling. You know, in May 24, I wouldn't have been able to say that but we're
almost we're coming up to two years later. Since that time there's been as I said, local truth and reparations
commissions popping up all over the country. We have legislation in the Senate and the House. Calling for a
reparation study commission, calling for a truth commission that are gaining momentum. We have
Republicans like Republican Governor Larry Hogan who wrote a letter to President Biden and asked him to
take action and establish a national federal truth commission to study the role of the federal government in
perpetrating or continuing systemic racism. I have been part of meetings at the White House with this
administration since the transition and then through the administration where they're working on this. They
know that this is an opportunity for them to lead. And the opportunity really is that we could build a
multiracial movement. It would be Black-centered and centered in the Black experience. And then all races
can join forces and try and come together to try to heal together. It has to be linked to truth-telling. It has to
be building racial unity. It has to kind of lead to transformation of policies and laws and the economic system
and all that, as well as healing. I think there's a craving, a yearning for us to be able to live together in more
harmony and more peace. We see that happening when there's a crisis. People come together. And I think
all people really yearn for that, is my sense.
Brian Hawkins - 00:27:47:
And so as a comic book writer and creator, I'm a black comic book writer and creator and I 100% own it. I
accept it. I want it. I would never say I just want to be a comic book writer because that cuts off part of my
human experience. My human experience is, yeah, as a man, But I'm a black man and those things are
linked together. They cannot be separated. And more do they need to be in order for you to know who you
are? And I think that's very important when it comes to storytelling. We're meant to tell the stories that we're
meant to tell. And you have to tell those stories from who you are. And, I'm a black comic book writer.

Jackie Ferguson - 00:28:39:
I love it. I love that. And it's such a good perspective, right? Because we as individuals bring all of our
identity to who we are in the workplace, who we are creatively, how we show up in our communities. And I
think that's such a great point. Thanks for sharing that, Brian.
Brian Hawkins - 00:29:58:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for asking. That's a great question.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:28:59:
So Brian, tell me what inspires your stories, and we'll get into a couple of those, but what inspires you to
write the stories that you do?
Brian Hawkins - 00:29:11:
Um, the human condition and it's that that term has just stuck with me for years and like even going back to
like teaching and in author's purpose and in. I will always teach. Within my English classes about the human
condition and how all stories are revolving around that and pulling from that. And I'm inspired by that. It is
what makes me love Shakespeare, because I feel like Shakespeare, you know, a man, he really, um like
examine uh exegete like what it is to be human in so many different ways.
Guest 13 - 00:29:58:
I think we were all burnt out. We were so in the moment and so present with the amount of work that we
were doing that we didn't allow ourselves time to have downtime. Like my office is closed on Fridays, but we
were still even working on Fridays in some cases, just to keep up with the volume of work that was coming
through. And so, you know, we kind of robbed ourselves of our four day week, many weeks. And I just felt if I
was feeling this, I knew my team must be feeling it too, because I'm only great because of what they do to
support me. And so the mental wellbeing was a benefit. Being present with our family and friends, especially
again, many of us probably traveling for the first time last year, after not being able to do so since 2019. So
having that time to just be present. And for those of us who were able to travel, to be able to get out of our
homes and break up the monotony of those four walls that have been closing in on us. Again, I consider that
part of our mental wellbeing. And then just experiencing and having new experiences. So, you know,
somewhat normal life, if you will, you know, still be a mask and, you know, all that stuff with traveling and
everything. But just being able to get out and meet new people and have new experiences, you know, just
gave me the energy, as I said, that I needed to come back and show up as my best self for this year.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:31:12:
Wow. That's such good advice. And certainly we can all think about when it's time for us to take that break,
right? And recovery is so important to the work we do, but especially in this space, because it's so
emotional.
Guest 13 - 00:31:26:
It is.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:31:27

Not only are the people that we're working with, having those challenges and those emotional reactions to
this work, but we are human, right? And so we are having those reactions as well. So I think that's fantastic
that you prioritize that.
Guest 13 - 00:31:45:
Yeah, I tell everyone this is head and heart work at the end of the day. It's about empathy, it's about
emotions, it's about in some cases even sympathy. And so, if you're leading this type of work, it can be
overwhelming, it can be exhausting, it can be emotionally draining. I have all of those same feelings, even
though I love what I do. And you have to give yourself that time to recover.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:32:09
Thanks for tuning in to some of my favorite moments from season six. Be sure to take a moment to leave a
rating review and subscribe so you'll be reminded when season seven premieres next week on September
20th. Become part of our community by joining us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter. This show was
edited and produced by Earfluence . I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.