Giving to Gain: Cultivating Results through Generous Leadership w/Joe Davis.

Jackie - 00:00:10:

Welcome to Season 10 of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox, proudly presented by the the Diversity Movement and part of the Living Corporate Network. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, business leader, and human rights advocate. In this podcast, we're diving deep into the stories of trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share insights and professional success and personal development. Thank you for being part of this amazing community. Enjoy the show. Thanks for tuning in to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. Today, I'm joined by Joe Davis, MD. Senior partner at Boston Consulting Group, and author of the book, The Generous Leader. Joe, thank you so much for being here today.

Joe - 00:00:58:

Jackie, thank you very much for having me.

Jackie - 00:01:01:

I'm excited about this topic. I'd love to start with having you share a little bit more about the pivotal moment in your career when you received that performance review feedback. From your problem solving skills and the importance of collaboration. I think that was a pivotal moment in our previous conversation about making that shift. If you'll talk about that, Joe, I'd love to start there.

Joe - 00:01:27:

Sure. I'm happy to. Actually, if you think back over a career, there's probably many pivotal moments, but this is one of those feedback moments I've never forgotten. So I had a mentor of many years. Very good guy, you know, great mentor. And then he pushed you and pushed you and pushed you. It wasn't always easy. It's tough. One time he said to me, so, you know, Joe, I could put you in a white room, doesn't matter what color, a room with four walls, no doors and no window. And another person, a BCG-er who's known to be quite, quite, quite smart and analytical, if I give you both a problem and say you can't leave the room until you solve it, the odds are you won't ever get out of the room, Joe. I thought, well, okay. And Philip was the other guy's name. Philip will get out every time. However, once you're outside that room, If we said, now get it done, unfortunately, he, Philip, will never probably get it done, and you will get it done every time. Now, the interesting thing, of course, I had to- Not get upset about the first half of that and understand what he was really telling me there was you know how to team, collaborate, kind of know what I don't know. I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room and therefore actually will push myself to get things done through others. I was also thinking about that when, you know, I could have just gotten so upset at the first half of the feedback. But in fact, at least for me, I took, I was quite proud of the second half. So I actually grabbed that and said, okay, that's what I'm good at. I'm going to live up to that, you know? And then of course, always work on trying to solve the problems. You can't just ignore that.

Jackie - 00:03:06:

Joe, I love that story for a couple of reasons. One, because... We all have to receive. Some critical feedback from time to time. And what happens to so many of us is we hold on to the piece that we hear that we don't like, right? And totally miss the good part. So it's so important to just point that out in your story, right? You've got to say, okay. This is where I'm maybe not the strongest, but this is the compliment. This is the piece I need to lean into. And then secondly, collaboration is so important. And I love that because leaders are looking for people who get the job done. And, you know, there's... That's really not something that you can teach. You can teach a lot of skills, but understanding how to leverage other people and utilize those skills, that information set, those insights to get to the result is so important. And so many of us, especially young people, in graduation season, I think it's so important. Think they have to have it all figured out. And you don't. You just need to know how to garner a team. So I love that story, Joe. And thank you for sharing it.

Joe - 00:04:21:

You bet. You bet. Yeah. I also think that the first half, even on the first half, though, okay, so I knew if I wasn't going to solve the problem, even there, how do I get people to help me solve it and or at least push myself to think as deeply as I can? I could have even resisted the constructive feedback to work on there. And you want to- But you're right, you can easily shut down. And that's not what's really going to make a difference as you're growing.

Jackie - 00:04:47:

Absolutely. So Joe, with over three decades at BCG, what inspired you to delve into the concept of generosity and leadership? Because that's a new concept for so many of us. And write The Generous Leader: Seven Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain. And this is such a great book. Thank you for this copy. I could not put it down once I started it. So tell us what inspired you to get into this topic and why it's so important, Joe.

Joe - 00:05:18:

Yeah. Well, first off, thank you for the comment on the book and for reading it. My publisher said, it's one thing to get the book in somebody's hands, Joe, but then they have to read it. And that's what we all need. So anyway, there's kind of three answers. Some are rather mundane. One thing, when I've actually finished up my role as head of North America, and a lot of that was during COVID, a number of my colleagues said, you should really write about that leadership experience, which actually some publishers said no one wants to read about COVID. So I tried to expand it way beyond that and get others' inputs. But one was I was pushed by colleagues to write about the style that you use. And actually many leaders do. Another reason is I'm... You know, I had a... I made a list of life's goals when I was actually about 15, and I found this. It was in a scrapbook. It's stunning. I found it maybe five or six years ago. A lot of rather interesting things for a 15-year-old, kind of deep, actually. But one thing did say, get something published. So I guess it was a bucket list item, which I didn't know about for many years of my life. But the most important thing is I really do think, and I've seen over the years of my career, I define a generous leader as someone who gives of themselves freely without expectation, of personal direct benefit to help others develop, grow, and thrive to their full potential. And I just think that's so essential to leadership. You mentioned that a minute ago with the concept of collaboration, how you get things done. And so the other reason I did write this is I wanted to do my little part, to encourage people to think and work on acting this way as a quote-unquote generous listener, a generous leader, really try to connect with people, engage, listen, et cetera. I think it's obviously great for the people with whom you work. It's actually good for you, one, because your people perform higher, but also it just does feel better. Of course, it's good for your organization. And if we get enough of us behaving this way, it can be a positive ripple through society.

Jackie - 00:07:23:

I love that. And you know, the thing about it, Joe, is a lot of leaders, especially, you know, Gen Xers and baby boomers that are still in the workplace, that's not the way we experienced leadership when we entered the workforce. And so this shift and what leadership is and means. And how it behaves is different. Will you tell us a little more about being a generous leader from your book and just a couple of those traits or a couple of those behaviors?

Joe - 00:08:01:

Yeah, well, and I like what you said about Gen Z and actually even the millennials. If you take that group of people, they're well over half the workforce now.

Jackie - 00:08:08:

That's right.

Joe - 00:08:09:

And on the one hand, some of them, oh, they're younger, they're different. And some people say, come on, Joe, that's cliche. It doesn't matter what is different, is they were raised and part of a different set of work life. I mean, with the starting of BlackBerry right through to the, you know, to then the iPhone, well, whatever, the computer, then the iPhone, and now Zoom, the whole thing's blurred. So people are expecting, you know, you're bringing yourself to work more than we ever used to. You know, the days of the IBM white shirt, blue, you know, that and those commercials. Those days are... I think they're over. I actually believe they're over. So the first off is, and then, you know, then COVID crushed it together right away. So there is a very different expectation of people that, hey, I'm, you know, I'm with you so much of the day and maybe you're now at home with me at night or in the day when I'm working from home. So that's the first thing that they are expecting you, the leaders, to see them as a human, very importantly, as a person. They're no longer want to be, well, they never wanted to be, but the time of just being a cog in the organization's wheel is over. You know, this is not, oh, I'm talking to a podcast host. No, I'm talking to Jackie, you know, and that's, it's your role's fun thing. You, you are the thing that matters. So that's the first thing I think is driving a change towards what I would argue means more of a generous leader. And there, you know, there's, as you noted, a handful of traits in there. I think some of the most, some of the most important ones. One. One is really listening to learn from everybody else, other individuals. You've got to know that you don't know it all. You're really trying to understand what's in that person's head that's going to be useful to me, or what's their lived experience. And you can't pretend to know it, but you can work on understanding it, that they're bringing here that I need to know to help them be most effective, et cetera. So that one's quite critical to me. I think another one that's quite critical to me is this, you know, this idea of, you know, vulnerability is an overused word, but just, you know, authenticity, honesty, vulnerability, whatever you want to use, but also bringing a bit of your humanity because people are looking to you to see humanity. And then, of course, people are looking for you to connect with them in different ways and connect a little more personally. Than you might have. And that, you know, depending on your role and as you grow through, you know, how many people work with you and all that, that can be tricky, but it's, I think it's doable. So there's seven, I won't go through all seven traits, but those are a couple that I think are pretty, pretty important.

Jackie - 00:10:41:

Thank you so much for that. That's very helpful. And you mentioned vulnerability. So let's talk a little about that. One of the important parts of being a generous leader is to embrace your own vulnerability. Can you talk a little, Joe, about your family and how they influenced? This very valuable trait in you.

Joe - 00:11:01:

Yes, thank you. I like that question because it just makes you reflect back on moments in your life that affect you. I was actually talking to my son-in-law yesterday about the word wisdom. I was saying, well, but you have all the experience in life, and as you go through them, if you learn from them, you become, quote-unquote, wiser. He said, yes, as long as you learn from them, which I thought was an interesting point because some of us may learn from different experiences in different ways. But for me, there are some powerful things, especially on the concept of vulnerability. I am known to cry at work in front of others. I don't sob, but I'll let a tear shed. I don't have much problem with it. But there are some things along the way. Quite important to me. I mean, I got, um, married, when I was 23, during the service, I cried through my vows the entire way. I couldn't get through it. My wife, strong, clear words. And I was in the ministry. I'd go like eight words, and then I'd copy the eighth, and he'd say the next eight. And I was embarrassed. I was mortified. I'm 23. I'm a kid, but I'm a 23-year-old guy. I can't say that. Well, it was funny. It was fascinating because afterwards, all these people come up. Oh, my gosh. Oh, so wonderful. The love in the church. I could feel it. I don't think I quite clicked at that moment that, wow, those tears didn't make me look like it. They actually helped the room. But then another thing happened along. Really, to be more clear, my mom died when I was 30. And it was a Catholic service. And three brothers, the three brothers, we all spoke. That one, I didn't get a word out. I literally did sob. And the priest stopped, no, didn't stop me. I was just crying, interrupted and said, you know, Joe, don't worry about it because tears are the fountains of love. So, you know, what another powerful story for me. And then again, I got all this feedback about not how wonderful, but how, you know, just emotional it was. So those were moments in my life that were influencing me. That I didn't think of at the time, but you know, they enabled me to, oh, I cried. It wasn't embarrassed. It was embarrassing. It didn't hurt. Other people actually appreciate it. You know, that's an interesting lesson. I'll just tell you two more, one silly one and one, one serious one. I'm not talking, I guess my mom dies quite serious, but one work one, the silly one I actually, when I was 25, decided to go back and take piano lessons again, like, you know, you did when you're eight, nine and 10 and then you quit. Not everybody does, but I was one of those that quit. And here's, we had a recital and there's me 25-year old guy with this recital with a bunch of eight year olds, or they might've been, I don't know. And I'll tell you, I, and I just clock-click, you know, ping, ping, ping, ping, you know, it wasn't anything fancy. I was so nervous, so nervous. And there's a little boy in the front row leans over to his mom, mommy, he's really scared. Yeah, kid, I am. So I got through it. But, you know, it was another one of those moments. Terribly embarrassing. But only to me, you know, and that one, there was no feedback whatsoever, but it was like, okay, I made it through. I tried something. I put myself out there. I wanted to do it. The world didn't end. And then a very powerful work one for me. I had this, a mentor, the same person that gave me the white room, the, you know, the four walls and no windows question feedback. I had something I couldn't figure out. And I walked down the hall to ask him if he knew how to do it. Now, he didn't know. Now, he could have, before he answered, could have said, hey, I'm busy. Come back later. And then gone and figured it out and told me, you know. Or he could have said, hey, buddy, just think harder. Come on. That's your job. Figure it out. Instead, he said, oh, I don't know either. Let's walk down and ask this other person. You know, what an interesting, powerful signal to me. So here's my boss. He's a partner at the Boston Consulting Group. And he just said to me, some junior guy, oh, I don't get it either. Let's ask another person. You know, an immediate sign of simple vulnerability. But he didn't have to do that. And that sent a very, you know, all these things I reflect back, a very powerful signal. Hey, if you're stuck, go ask for help. And, you know, just keep looking for the person that can help you. It goes back to your collaboration and teamwork, if we can point at the beginning.

Jackie - 00:15:03:

Absolutely, Joe. I think, you know, thank you for sharing those stories because as you did, I began to reflect on sharing vulnerability in my own life. And I'm sure that our listeners are doing the same. And one of the things that you said was. Basically, do things afraid. You don't, it's okay to be scared. It's okay to try things and be out of your comfort zone. That's such good advice because so many of us. Don't move, right? And we stay in the same job or the same relationship or the same town or wherever the thing is. Because we're afraid to move. We're afraid to change. We're afraid to make a mistake. And I love that you push through that, even through your fear. And I think that's good advice for all of us. So thank you for those stories.

Joe - 00:15:57:

Yeah, I completely agree with you on taking a few chances.

Jackie - 00:16:03:

Absolutely. So important. Joe, you've held numerous leadership roles within BCG, from co-founding the Washington, D.C. Office to leading BCG North America. How has your understanding of leadership evolved over the years? And how does generosity play into effective leadership in your experience?

Joe - 00:16:24:

Yeah, so two starting points. Of course, the importance of, quote-unquote, being a generous leader has grown in my own understanding of leadership over all those roles. And I'll talk a bit about more of that. But the other thing that is important, I think, to even start, and it's also about maturity and understanding your role as a leader, is that you still have to get things done. You still have to get results. And Joaquin Duato, the CCO of J&J, I interviewed him for the book, and he had one point, a very good quote that I put in there. He said, I don't get exactly right. But you see, you know, Joe, people trying, giving your best, that's all good. But leaders have to remember outcomes matter. So, you know, the generosity is not just about, you know, rainbows and fluffly clouds and unicorns. It is about outcome. But he also said, the sooner you become mature enough to realize it's a get past yourself, and realize it's not all about you, but it's about you connecting to, listening to, engaging with your teams. Then he said something very powerful. The sooner you will unlock the human traits and capabilities they bring to actually get the best results.

Jackie - 00:17:32:

Wow.

Joe - 00:17:33:

Yeah, it's very powerful because there's so much in there. But even to say the word human traits, not just their best skills or their capabilities, no, the humanity in them and leverage that. But there's two points. You still have to get results, but you're only going to get them through them. I mean, of course, not just through them. So I do think, though, your point about the evolution of the roles. I even think you talked about, you know, newer leaders. You know, I think when you get your first leadership job. Then your mind is all about you. And maybe you only have a team of three people. And you even at that point might be able to get it done by yourself. You know, because it's those three, they just do their thing and I'll get it all done. But that doesn't work. As the roles, you know, as you grow. And actually, I think also in that new job, I just thought of this. Yesterday I was talking to somebody. My first role, first leadership role, was a sales manager called district field rep. I think it was a title. Four sales reps, Procter & Gamble, 25 years old. We were selling shampoo and toothpaste and that stuff. And I rode with the team, the individuals, every two weeks and supposedly was giving them feedback. Now, one person was a manager track person. The other three were career sales reps. I was 25. I mean, I thought they were 45 or older. They might have been 37 for all I know because, you know, the age differences. But I was afraid to give any sort of feedback to them because, well, what do I know? You know, I'm just some kid. You know, I reflect. And then actually I did kind of a sad story. I put every bit of feedback in the person's year in review. And the person said to me, well, Joe, he actually, during the review, interrupted me. He said, what are you doing? I ride with you every two weeks. You never told me a damn thing. Like, what's going on here? And my boss after that, I can't remember how I answered. I'm sure I was embarrassed. My boss said, don't you ever write a review again where they don't know every word that's going to be written on that review. In other words, you feed along the way. But, you know, I think that first role there. It wasn't about generous leadership. I was too afraid to even be a generous leader. I was afraid to even give feedback. But I do think as you move along, of course. Your point about overall role, as the number of people you lead grow, you realize it's impossible to get it done by yourself. Or if you don't, well, you won't continue to grow and you probably won't keep the job. And you have to really find ways to motivate, inspire, and help others thrive and deliver at their best. And I really saw that with all these C-suite people I interviewed, because all of them, that's all they talk about is how to motivate, inspire through the people, which, duh, if you're running, I don't care if it's 5,000 or 100,000 person company. It's no longer about you. It's just going to be.

Jackie - 00:20:20:

Absolutely. That's such good advice, Joe. First, just to reiterate, the outcomes matter when you're a leader. That doesn't go away because we're talking about inclusive leadership or generous leadership.

Joe - 00:20:36:

Right, or servant leader, whatever.

Jackie - 00:20:37:

That's right. Exactly right. Those outcomes still decide whether you keep your job or not, whether your team is employed or not, whether that company grows or not. And so it's so important to understand that what we're talking about is the pieces that we place around getting to those outcomes, but not in place of the outcomes. So I love that. Joe, as chair of BCG's Center for Inclusion and Equity, what is your advice for organizations facing headwinds around DEI that have seen the benefits to their organization's culture?

Joe - 00:21:17:

Right. Well, I mean, first off, I'm a big believer in diverse workforces. I think all the data says that. So my first comment will be, if you're leading a place, please stay the course, please. But now you're asking a different question. So I was thinking a couple of things. One, I think, you know, I would, first advice, I would check and confirm your values as an organization. You know, what did you believe before? Is there any reason for that to change? Just because the external environment is screaming different things or passing different laws in different parts of the world, that shouldn't have changed your organization and what you believed in. So if you still have got the same value, if you, you know, had built a diverse workforce and got benefits to the culture, if you still believe that, well, at first, okay, so that's a good start, you know, because now you can say, okay, the external environment can do what it wants to do. I may have to figure out how to work in it. I'll come back to that. But there's no reason why we change what we believe in. And I think also I- You even then check your beliefs and your aspirations. You know, have they, have they changed or adjusted? Is there anything that this is kind of the same point, but anything that, you know, you are now you as an organization are thinking about it differently. And then the other thing I was thinking is, you know, just reconfirm, especially if you're feeling. Pressures against what you used to believe in and probably still believe, you know, as an organization. So you, I don't know if we're talking to the CEO, the head of HR, you know, the whole group, but reconfirm the benefits. I mean, you said a comment of benefits to the organization's culture. So were those benefits really there? Did you see them? Did you believe them? Did you, you know, the data is there, out there, whether consulting firms like mine have done studies on diverse workforces, actually most of the banks have done studies. That they actually see higher returns. Are those benefits still there? Do you see improved retention? Do you see better resilience amongst your people? Happiness, harder to measure. And more importantly, is there retention? Better retention. And also, whatever the business benefits that you see through thinking through a DEI lens. If you're a bank, one, you could be criticized for the old practice of redlining. But put that aside, that wants to broaden the number of customers that you and clients you serve. Has anything changed? If none of that's changed, then... I think keep pushing against the headwinds. Now, you may have to make practical checks on limitations and constraints. I mean, if you can't afford to use the word diversity, but you can use it because someone's going to hassle you because of some law written, but you can use inclusion. Well, okay, that doesn't change. Use inclusion. It's okay. And no one's fighting inclusion, by the way, I've noticed. So I do think, but otherwise, and adjust anything optically you might need to. I'm not going to say don't do that. But if it's something the organization believed in before. There really were benefits which is by definition the way you ask the question there were. And, you know, stay the course and just, you know, if you have to make some external adjustments optically, so what? You know, that's not the end goal. The end goal is the benefit of it. Diverse workforce. And by diverse, of course, we mean all kinds of things, different lived experiences, different backgrounds, different capability sets. It's a broad thing that really drives the value.

Jackie - 00:24:34:

I love that, Joe. That's, you know, that's such a good way to think about it because Checking your values. Have your values changed because of what's happening in society or what you're hearing loudly, right? And another thing is so many people think. Is the tide turning, but really it's just the loud voices that you're hearing. The average person isn't screaming their thoughts on social media, on the news, etc. And most people believe in... The idea of equality, inclusion, et cetera. And so, I love that. You know, just because you've got some shifts in the way society works, does that change? Who you are as an organization fundamentally. And generally, that answer is going to be no. I love the way that you explain that.

Joe - 00:25:33:

No, and if you actually were doing it because you were checking some box, well, then. You know, well, whatever, then you check your values anyway, you and I would say, but that's not our business. We're not going to judge. But I think, yeah, I think that's so true.

Jackie - 00:25:49:

Absolutely. Joe, what does it mean to be an ally? What is that from your perspective?

Joe - 00:25:57:

Yes, it's interesting. That is something I learned a lot just the last handful of years, I would say, because someone called me once, a consultant from our Dallas office. And she said to me, Joe, you're an action ally. And I kind of had to go look up the word. I couldn't find it in there. So I called her back and said, what does that mean? What do you mean by that? So actually, so an ally, I actually talk about it in that chapter of the book. You could be a button wearer, Black Lives Matter month, Pride month. And I'm not going to argue that's not nice. That's nice. But that's not really making a difference unless you add to that. So then you can be, and this one is in all the books, performative ally, who means, okay, I was told to have checked the boxes on this level of diversity or this level. And you get it done. And a good friend said, Joe, that's not really what's the best thing. But it's better than nothing. If it's going to force you to build some diversity in the workforce and people connect with one another. Then when you get to an action ally, what I mean by that and what I learned through really blunt conversations with colleagues. First off, is it's someone who really opens the door, creates opportunities for others to walk through. And then they, and it's a very important thing people said to me is, Joe, and when we walk through, don't do it for me. Let me perform. But give me the chance to perform. Give me an opportunity to perform. You know, I'd love it if you paved the opportunity, but then I've got to do it. If I fail, it's my problem. I mean, you know, you have coaches and all help on that, but if I fail, let me fail. Don't let me fail, but, you know, don't think you have to do it. That is not an ally. That's just, I don't know what that is. And they had a couple other, there's two other quite important points. Someone said to me, you know, be sure to give when you're coaching your top 5%, which probably should do that all the time, except you only have one, you know, you're going to run out of the top 5%. But, you know, the point was, if you get, once you open that door for me, you're going to coach me, really give me your best coaching. And the other thing I think is very powerful, and I had some colleagues that even said this didn't happen the way it should have all the time, is when things get tough, if I'm starting to fail a little bit, don't run away. Still be there. Don't do it for me, but be there for me like you would be for anybody else. And, you know, I had a handful of colleagues who told me, you know, my mentor or ally was there, and then things got wobbly and they weren't there anymore. So that's really open the door, let them walk through and perform, but do coach well. Stick around the tough times.

Jackie - 00:28:22:

Stick around. Yeah, absolutely. That's great advice, Joe. Thank you for that. Can you share some practical strategies or examples from your own leadership journey where generosity has played a transformative role in solving complex challenges or fostering innovation for you?

Joe - 00:28:42:

Yeah. I'm probably cheating because I'm going to use the COVID two years, right? Yeah, please do. Because that was very, you know, not a specific problem, but it was very complex, as you know, and we all had to innovate. And so that was an amazing time. It was a hard time. There's a lot of uncertainties. You look back now, I think maybe we all react in different ways. But it was incredible. I think a couple of things for me as practical strategies. One, I had to build. Inclusive. Team immediately and by inclusive not just you know my three my chief of staff and my two other senior partners who were my team you know i had to get people up and down the organization across you know different lived experiences because i was a senior i'm a senior partner bcg i don't know what the life of a second year consultant is you know um so build a team immediately and then The other way to do it is really... Connect well and understand, which I think a leader has to do, you know, well beyond your own. Lived experience. And I had a friend, a partner said, Joe, you know, got a house that you raised your four kids in, it's got a lot of bedrooms and blah, blah, blah. You don't know the other people's lived experience. You've got to get out there and understand it. And, you know, very practically for me, I mean, the beauty of Zoom, you can talk to a lot of people and actually feel their life. So I remember I talked to one second year consultant and the person said he was on his bed. So what are you doing on your bed? And he said, well, I get to bed one week and my wife gets the living room. And then we switch because we have a bedroom, a living room and a kitchenette. And that's our apartments, probably in New York or Chicago or something, right? And that was not my life. I thought, wow, this is important for me to realize. The other thing I did, which is I built a thing called, I call them kitchen tables, had to do with my, when we raised our children, we had a blue kitchen table, big round table that we'd, whenever we're all together, we'd have very dynamic heated discussions and not heated fighting, but you know, sometimes someone wouldn't get in. Even when I had my first grandchild, she was older, she's, well I can't get in the conversation, I said well first off you have to have something interesting to say. And secondly you going to butt your way in, and if it's not very interesting, we're all gonna, I mean well actually one's that harsh, you know, so like fight for your space person. You know, but, I had that's not quite what I called the kitchen table, where I actually had sets of, the first-year people, sets of third-year people. And I just had 25 to 30 on Zoom, maybe not quite that, 15 to 25. And we had a set of questions and I did everything in my power not to talk, which wasn't easy, but not to answer every question, but to listen and hear. So I could start to connect beyond my normals. In my own normal circle, which goes to another thing that's very important in these kind of moments. You have to listen to learn, which we mentioned earlier. You have to understand you don't know it all. You've got to go find those who are living experiences differently and have ideas and knowledge. And then the other thing that's very powerful during this complex one, which we already touched on, was this whole thing of personal vulnerabilities. All of us we're uncertain. Some of us probably very stuck. Some stuck, afraid, and blah, blah. The minute you show up, your own vulnerabilities, it just is so freeing for everybody else. I get so much feedback. Also important, if you're doing a complex challenge, you've got to be willing to say, I would say call this vulnerable or humble enough to say, I don't know where we're going right now. I don't know the answer, but let's all team together. As we get new information, we'll adjust and we'll change, which is quite critical. I just watched Oppenheimer, if you've watched that. But as brilliant as he was, he still took, and he took it maybe more slowly because he was so brilliant himself, but he listened to other people that had different ideas and he jumped on them and he switched where he was going. Now, he could have thought, because he was the smartest guy in the world, well, I've got it all. But no, he didn't do that. So those are some examples of using, you know, generous leadership kind of traits. During a rather complex time, not a simple problem. But all of those would apply if you're just given a very tough problem that you've got to solve to help your organization move through, build the right team, make sure you don't know everything. If people get stuck, show some of your own vulnerability, help them get unstuck, et cetera.

Jackie - 00:33:07:

Absolutely. Joe, that's so important because one, employees are looking for leaders that are vulnerable, that don't have all the answers, because that's what allows them to innovate and try something and share an idea and try a new process. And if the leader can say, you know, we went down this path. It didn't work the way we thought. We're going to double back and try it a different way. That encourages the employees to do that as well. And that's where you get the innovation and the collaboration within your organization. Think that's such a smart way to think about it. And then listening. A lot of leaders feel like they know. What their employee base thinks and feels. And they haven't actually sat down with them virtually or in person and, and listen to what they had to say. What the sentiments really were, because there's so much information to be gained for that, from that and how you approach leading the entire organization.

Joe - 00:34:16:

Yeah, that's smart. The way you said that is interesting because it's so true. I also think, first off, a lot of leaders think they know the answer, which therefore they don't even get to where you said, which is they think they know how everybody else is feeling, which is probably why they know the answer. And they're just double off. Now, maybe they're right. They're probably right 80% of the time. But you're never fully right, right? And you're not completely richly, if that's the right word, robustly right.

Jackie - 00:34:44:

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Joe, what advice would you give to aspiring leaders who are looking to cultivate generosity as a core value in their leadership style?

Joe - 00:34:58:

Well, pretty easy, obviously. But the first off is that quote from Joaquin, you know, the sooner you get, it is about results and the sooner you get past yourself and understand those results come from you connecting with. Listening to and inspiring the human traits of your teams, the sooner you're going to get to real outcomes. That is critical. The sooner you understand about the people, et cetera, you will move on yourself and start to use these traits. The other thing I'd say is you can put it a different way. You've heard this, of course. There's the head, the heart, and the hand. I think a lot of us work real hard on the head. What's the strategy? What's the plan? What's my vision? How do I get there? And the hand, how do I get it done? What metrics? Just remember. One piece of, I just remember to bring, and the heart's there usually, it's not, you know, but bring that heart, push it into equals, you know, I don't care if it's more, push it into equals. And then the advice I'd say, if you want to get going is just pick. Pick one of these traits. I mean, not to go through my book, but start with listening to learn. Really start with, I don't know everything. You know something I don't know. Start there. Pick that trait, or we didn't talk about it, but small acts have huge impact. I mean, start with simple acts like if someone on your team does an exceptional job, congratulate them. Thank them. Do it in front of others, whether it's sending an email and copying a bunch of people. Send it along to your boss, remember someone's birthday. Kind of silly, but pretty powerful to the person. Or a good friend of mine said to me, she said, I love it when I say something to my manager on a Wednesday, like, oh, my kid has a big soccer game this weekend. And on Monday, the first thing the other manager said, oh, how'd that soccer game go? What a simple little thing. Now, you have to remember that. You may not remember everything, so I'll give you that. But if you remember, take the four seconds to ask that question, listen to the person for 20 seconds, and you just won. You know, you won over someone in the followership category, and you're starting to cultivate the generosity of leadership. So that's what I'd say. But I wouldn't say, oh, gosh, I've got to be all seven of these things tomorrow. You know, pick something and just start down the path.

Jackie - 00:37:21:

I love that. Start where you are, pick something and start down the path. That's so great. I really like, Joe, that you talked about those small points of recognition for your employee base because studies show that that really, really matters to employees. And for so many leaders, they think, well, if their salary is fair and they've got a reasonable benefits package, then we've done our job. But really, they want that relationship with their manager. That, um, makes them feel like a person and not like, an accountant or a marketing manager or whatever. And that's so important. Thanks for sharing that.

Joe - 00:38:05:

Yeah, I agree with you. Yep, yeah. I was just going to say, I was thinking about, you know, you think about the little star you got in kindergarten on the top of your paper, first grade and your paper wasn't that good, but you got a star because, so I'm not into the, you know, participation trophies. I am for a five-year-old of course, but, but the same version of that, that was just a pat on that. We can't pat on the back, maybe anymore like we used to, but whatever today's version is a pat on the back. Yeah. You just mentioned it. There's study after study that shows that means more than the money. Now, if someone's getting burned on the money, that's not right, but that's a different point, you know? And then they'll walk away anyway, if they can. So yeah, those, those, those pat on the back or at a person go a long way.

Jackie - 00:38:48:

Absolutely. Joe, in today's fast-paced and competitive business landscape, how can leaders strike a balance between achieving results and embodying generosity in their leadership approach? And we talked about this with the outcomes a little bit.

Joe - 00:39:05:

Yeah, right, right.

Jackie - 00:39:06:

Talk to us a little bit more about that and how we create that balance. In expectation and relationship.

Joe - 00:39:18:

Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, of course, yes, as you pointed out, it is about the results. But at least I believe and I can tell by talking to you, you believe that working through the team, we actually get the best results. And I think some of the ways to. You know, balance that. I mean, first off is a little bit of repeat. I apologize, Jackie, but, you know, see the person, not the role. I mean, that's a very important point. And you mentioned it again on the small acts. You know, people are looking to connect. You've got to balance that. I think the other thing is, you know, someone said to me, well, related to this, well, don't tough times, you know, if we're having tough times now, you know, social media is pounding at us. There's so much going on in the world. We all know, we don't have to recite it. Don't we need a tough leader? But, you know, if you think about that, sure. Just change the definition of tough. You know, a tough leader is balancing this. It's going to get results for the shareholders or investors or whatever it might be. But they also understand they have to manage and deliver for all the stakeholders, the customers or clients, their people critically, and now the community at large. You know, you have to be still tough enough to make decisions. You can't afford to be indecisive. You have to be vulnerable enough when you're working with your people to say, hey, that was the wrong call. We're going to go this way instead. You don't have to say, I'm sorry, just change. You know, and I think importantly, and you started here too, you know, the comment of empathetic, you know, Kristin Peck is the CEO of Zoetis, the pet medicine company, pharmaceutical company. And she pointed out, she was on this, I was reading something from her, she actually happens to be an ex-BCGer, that with over half the workforce, being Gen Z and millennial, you know, they want to work for people who share their values, etc. They're really looking for someone to connect with them in a different way. So, you know, you've got to be, firm enough, develop your people. We didn't talk about it, but give feedback that helps them grow. But do that in a vulnerable and authentic way. You know, you don't just be nice to your trade-off point, but you can't just say, hey, you're crappy at this, you're crappy at this, you're crappy at this. I mean, and not spend one minute to understand what they're good at and where they're coming from to help them actually get better. So I think that's some of the trade. I was just balancing both of these. And I do think this has changed. I was thinking about a woman named Fran Katsoudas, who's the chief people policy and HR head at Cisco, the tech company. She told me a great story. She said when she first started in her career, some other leader pulled her aside. And said, you know, Fran, you don't have enough killer instinct. You shouldn't care as much. You would do well to put some of that away. Can you believe that? And she said, well, I didn't follow that advice because it wasn't me. And she actually pointed out it didn't work out so well for that leader. But she said, yeah, I know. I thought that was interesting. But she did say, of course, this is what is required of today's leaders. And she pointed out, I'll still make tough calls. I will engage in tough issues. I will push my people to go fast. I always try to do it with respect and with care. So, you know, there is a way. I mean, you have to learn, you have to grow into it, you have to develop, you have to make mistakes. But I do believe there's really a way to. Drive for the outcomes while inspiring and growing your people. They're going to come together at the end of the day. And that doesn't mean you're all nice all the time. You've got to be firm if it's the right thing. You've got to make decisions people may not like and live with them. But if you put the two together, the outcomes are probably going to be pretty damn good.

Jackie - 00:42:53:

Love that. That's such great advice. Joe, tell us about your involvement in Southern Community Initiatives, if you would.

Joe - 00:43:02:

Sure, sure. So I should probably briefly what that is. So this is an organization founded by Robert Smith of Vista Equity, Dan Schulman from PayPal and BCG. And we're really trying to help close the wealth gap, in particular in black communities. And we picked six or seven cities in the south where, one, the data is not so good. And two, it's over half the population is actually black. And we're doing a few, I mean, we're focusing hard on how do you... Well, through CDFIs, you know, banks that help small businesses get started. How do you actually get businesses going so, you know, they can build wealth themselves, employ others, et cetera, as well as helping close the technology gap, the digital divide that's so prevalent in some of these places working with, you know, with different organizations will do that. So it's pretty interesting. Some of my lessons there, by the way, it's very hard. There's a lot of organizations doing this. At first, I thought, wow, but it takes so many different groups to push in so many different places to get to the outcomes we all want. There were a couple of things I thought were interesting lessons of that. One was this whole idea of if you're really going to make a difference. In a community on this kind of topic, you have to build it around an ecosystem. And there was a very, I was in, we're in Charlotte and they'd taken us, to visit this group that was getting laptops into the hands of those who didn't have them. Now, this started with some tech company, I don't know which one, donating 10,000 laptops. That's nice, but that's only the tip of the start. That's only the start. Oh, here, we'll send 10,000 laptops to this thing. Now what do we do? The group that took the laptops then had to create a system. They had to advertise that they're there. They had to find a place to hand them out. They had to have a way to teach the person how to use them. Oh, and even better, they set up a repair site if something's going wrong, a help desk. Then they said, oh, now we actually have to have people figure out how to use these and actually help get a job because we're about closing the wealth gap, not just someone gets a piece of hardware in their hand. They used all kinds of different organizations to pull together that ecosystem. That was a massive lesson for me because companies can think, oh, yeah, well, I wrote a check for $25,000 or I said I'm going to give more loans. Okay, those are important, or not 25 grand, 25 million, whatever. Those are important, but then you've got to, you probably can't build the ecosystem, but the organizations that are out there building, you've got to enable and allow them to build the ecosystem to make a difference. That was one very powerful lesson for me through this SCI, which we're trying to focus on. I'll say something more personal, too. I was in Birmingham, and it was the time they had a BCG North America active part of SCI. And we just had a lot of talks and, you know, meetings, et cetera. And, and, um, And one was with the CEO of the big insurance company down there, and he invited five or six other CEOs. Of course, one wasn't, but most of them were white males. But it was still good they came, you know, they were in the room. But at the end of it, you know, I said to the guy that was our host, I said, well, you know, was I helpful here? I mean, one meeting you had me do a Q&A, but I didn't do much. He said, Joe, you don't get it. He said, when you show up as a white male, head of BCG North America, you know those other guys that showed up in that room? And the head of the insurance company actually was someone that's pushing her. The fact that you two were in that room, the others said, oh, gosh, I guess I better at least go and see what they're talking about. So I thought it was pretty interesting. So, you know, so actually, Joe, just being there, being there sends a real powerful message to others who may would rather, maybe not rather be there. But no, you have to help be part or you should we should at least figure out what this is. And can we help them, be a part of it? So those are some a couple of lessons, which, you know, someone asked me the other day with the- Someone that said to me, you know, Martin Luther King died, a lot of energy or, you know, assassinated. And then it dies off. So George Floyd was the same and it's dying off, which just made that dying off. But, you know, you had the comment earlier on the just made me think, okay, but those who want to push and make a difference, you still got to be out there and be out, you know, be out front or be visible because it's the changes have to keep coming.

Jackie - 00:47:29:

That's exactly right.

Joe - 00:47:29:

Sorry, a little bit of lecture there. Sorry.

Jackie - 00:47:31:

No, I love it. You know, it's so important. And what you're saying, Joe, is so right. People that have influence need to be in those rooms so that other people can see those people of influence and say, oh, this is important. And that's just the way it is.

Joe - 00:47:48:

Yeah, I know.

Jackie - 00:47:49:

It's just the way it is.

Joe - 00:47:50:

That's why I felt like, well, just because I'm here, what the heck? It wasn't me. It was my role. I'm just a guy. But he said, no, no, he said what you just said, no, no, but you send a big signal, your role sends a big signal, this is important. And you're right. It is what it is. But that means we better be out there. You know, that's what it means.

Jackie - 00:48:07:

Absolutely, that's right, Joe. Joe, what's the message that you'd like to leave our listeners with today?

Joe - 00:48:13:

So actually, I'll leave one. Whether you do it today, depending on what time you list this, or tomorrow, let me ask a favor. Do something simply generous, like maybe take a few minutes and go let your team. Now, if you have a hundred thousand people, it's trickier, but go let your team know or your colleagues, those you work with and those you lead, how much you appreciate them. That's the message. That's the action message I would leave. I'd also say, you know, I don't care how you get your hands on my book or any one of these books like this kind of topic. Spend some time to read it and try to act on some of the messages.

Jackie - 00:48:54:

Great advice, Joe. How can listeners learn more about your work and connect with you?

Joe - 00:49:01:

Well, like most of us, I mean, there is a website, joedavis.com. It's okay. I think LinkedIn, you know, well, you know, they're all as good as they're good, right? But LinkedIn, I am, since I've written this book, I've become much more active. And I actually pay attention to the messages now. Most of them used to come to me saying, can I get a job? Can I get a job? Can I get a job? And that was kind of how BCG hired, so it was tiresome. Now I get, sorry about that, but now I get more interesting message. And actually we want to engage in something. So, you know, I'm trying to be active on LinkedIn. Then, of course, as I just said a second ago, I'll tell you how you get the book. Maybe try to read it or skim it at least, you know.

Jackie - 00:49:38:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a great read. Joe, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. I really enjoyed it and appreciate your insights.

Joe - 00:49:47:

Thank you, Jackie. It was a lot of fun.

Jackie - 00:49:53:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you loved this show, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, YouTube, and TikTok, or subscribe to our newsletter at beyondthecheckbox.com. This show is part of the Living Corporate Network, sponsored by The Diversity Movement, and edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.