Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox Compilation – Best of Season 4

Jackie Ferguson - 00:00:10:
Welcome to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast, sponsored by The Diversity Movement, where we
discuss diversity, equity, and inclusion topics with leaders that make our world a more welcoming and
supportive place for all. We can't wait to share with you what's coming next, but in this compilation episode,
we're looking back on the conversations we've had with season four business leaders, entrepreneurs and
authors who shared their inspiring stories, perspectives and lessons around inclusive cultures, self discovery
and courageously stepping up to do incredible things. So without further ado, here are some of my favorite
moments from Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast, season four. There's a couple of ways to go with
bias. There's the negative bias, but then you've also got the positive bias, right? And for those of us who
have interviewed, and I'm sure there are many of the folks that are in this bowl right now that have
interviewed candidates, if you find that you have something in common, right? Whether that be a school or a
hobby or whatever, you're spending half of the conversation talking about that thing you've got in common
and really haven't evaluated of this candidate. Is, you know, qualified to do the job. So there's there's bias
that can go either way, but Anything else that we wanna talk about with regard to recruiting bias. And then I
also wanna get into some strategies that both of you recommend to mitigate that bias all the way from job
description to onboarding. So I'm interested in your thoughts there.
Guest 1- 00:01:53:
Take off your zip code, take off your address. There's no need for anyone to have their resume with their
address on it at this point. There should be no zip codes. There should be your phone number and your
email. So, I mean, I used to have positions. Let's say I had a position years ago, years and years ago in
Connecticut. They'd be like, oh, we are not gonna hire someone from Brooklyn. Brooklyn to Connecticut? I
mean, the amount of people that I could have placed over the last however many years. That were in San
Francisco that the job was in Chicago and they wouldn't even consider them. I think there, you know, that
I'm a huge person about not sharing. I don't know how many people know that about me. Stop oversharing.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:02:33:
Mm hmm.
Guest 1- 00:02:33:
100% If you're pregnant. Don't tell them. You don't owe a. That is no one's business if you're pregnant. You
don't have to advertise your age. Age discrimination is a huge problem.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:02:44:
Mm-hmm And it's so interesting how you have to learn to lead in a different way, to message in a different
way, to inspire in a different way than, you know, the Gen Xers like myself, it's totally different and you've got
to learn and adapt and grow with these younger generations because the way they think about things, what
they prioritize, how they want to align their values, their personal values with where they work, how they
shop, it's different. And, you know, I think that organizations now are moving in that direction and
understanding that that's what's happening in our society, but love that you're on the cutting edge of that with
the number of millennials and Gen Xers you have at your organization, that's fantastic.
Karyn Twaronite - 00:03:42:
Well, one of the things that I would say to your point a number of years ago, It might've sounded really soft
and squishy. But we instituted the concept of feeling free to be yourself at work. And. As a key lever to
measure for inclusion. Because it's pretty telling whether or not you can be or not and how that impacts
things. And to our Xers and Boomers that we work with, you know, at first when that idea came about, by the
way, thank goodness they said yes when we posed it. But and then the business benefits of that have been
tremendous. The then millennials, now there's Millennials in Xers. They think nothing of that. That's
baseline stakes. I better be able to be myself or I would go work someplace else across the street. And to be

honest with you, we know that we get a better work product and a better work experience, better teaming
experience. People get to feel free to be themselves.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:04:40:
Absolutely. You know, I read a study recently, I think it was an Oxford study that said that happy employees
are 13% more productive. And that's like getting an extra hour every day of productivity, which means more
profitability for your business. So those happy employees are working harder, working better and it benefits
your bottom line. So that's such an important part of the equation. Thanks for sharing that, Karyn.
It's too easy just in general to choose that employee or that colleague from your network to run your part of
your business or promote from your group of friends or your internal network. And the same, if you think
about vendors and suppliers, businesses that you support, how do we begin to be more intentional about
how we're thinking about that? And how do we elevate these designers of color and just diverse designers in
general within the space? Because I think it's 2% that are designers of color. Is that right?
Ashley Sharp - 00:06:02:
That's correct.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:06:03:
So how do we start to begin to think about that and change that, Ashley?
Ashley Sharp - 00:06:07:
That is such an amazing question and proud of you for for work designers for your own ho it is incredibly
difficult these designers, well, I guess we'll start at the very beginning. So the biggest thing is that they
aren't. Individuals of color going to design school, period. So this is just not something that happens. We had
a conversation with a university maybe two or three days ago, and in their 14 years, they have had one.
Person who is African-American. Go to their program.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:06:43:
Wow.
Ashley Sharp - 00:06:44:
I mean, it's, it's shocking. And A lot of times it's because these individuals are first time college attendees.
And their parents do not support them. Going down this career path because they don't see it as a viable
option for them to be successful in life. They want them to do business. Counting something that their child
will be able to have a sustainable job in. And there's so many amazing things that you learn through design,
right? Supply chain management, negotiation, communication, project management, but they're not
promoting that when they go to recruit. And so I'm actually gonna start speaking to some high schools.
About how to get their youth involved in some type of design program as they go into college-ready courses.
And just seeing that that is a viable option for individuals of color is to be a designer and to help their parents
understand all of the valuable skills that they'll learn through it.
Dr. Bob Batchelor - 00:07:48:
Supposedly they're going to re-look at this, but it's too late for this Olympics. And there is a longer term
impact. Because when you look at the statistics, blacks from age 5 to 24 are exponentially more in danger of
drowning than their peer groups.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:08:12:

That's right. Well, less than half of black children, Bob, can swim. You are a cultural historian, so let's dig
into this a little bit. You know, it's going back to the exclusion of black people in, you know, allowed in the
swimming pools.
Dr. Bob Batchelor - 00:08:28:
Yeah, in fact, even, you know, well past. When Jim Crow shouldn't have been taking place. I mean, because
you and I both know, we've been in the North enough to know there are towns that might have been in Jim
Crow, Alabama that are in the North. Blacks in the 1900s into the 60s were barred from public swimming
pools. So not only is it that Children today don't get swim-educated. But they're never taught because their
parents don't know how to swim.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:09:03:
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Because that's how we learn, right? Our parents teach us how to
swim. But if your parents don't know how to swim because their parents didn't know how to swim because
their parents weren't allowed in the pools. That's why we have that issue. And this is just an example of how
systemic inequities affect people generation by generation.
Dr. Bob Batchelor - 00:09:28:
Yeah. I looked at a USA Swimming statistic, and the latest statistics were from 2019, only 1.4% of year-
round swimmers, so that would be mainly competitive swimmers, were Black, and only 3.5% Hispanic. And
it was primarily lack of access to a pool. You know, so when black kids are dying or teenagers are dying and
drowning, incidences. It's usually in places where there aren't lifeguards. So in some areas there aren't
lifeguards in the public pools. Even in hotels this is happening. That's right. And so. Black kids want to jump
in the water too. I mean, you're basically, you're holding their head under the water if you don't create a
system in which that education is universal or at least much more widespread than it is now.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:10:33:
Being a Black woman officer is tough. Even though around the country more Black women chiefs are being
elected, including one just named in Raleigh, Stella Patterson, who's replacing retiring Cassandra Deck-
Brown, who was also a Black woman. What are some of the challenges of being a Black woman officer?
Major Derri Stormer - 00:10:33:
To be heard. And I was very happy to hear about the news of Stella getting that job. I met her several years
ago and she is very good people. To be, it's one thing to be in the room, but it's also another to be heard
while you're sitting at the room. It's another one to be maybe at the table, but to, it's one thing to be at the
table. Let's say you're having dinner, but it's another thing to be served a plate. So it's like, you gotta make
sure. And break the barriers of stereotypes because I can disagree with something and I can have an
attitude or I'm intimidating or aggressive, all these terms which are nothing but microaggressions. And it took
me a while to figure that out because you can let that stuff get you down because you're always trying to
change yourself to appease others.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:11:45:
Yeah.
Major Derri Stormer - 00:11:46:
So just understanding and being true to yourself. And knowing what you're doing is right. If you can stand on
that, it doesn't matter. You go forward and you keep doing it. Because there's been many times where I felt

like I literally was a robot because you're always, okay, how does my face look? Am I doing this? Am I doing
that? And you just have to constantly do that. I don't think everybody realizes what it's like to constantly feel
like. You're constricted on everything that you do. While others can go and they can have a bad day. But as
a female, I can't show emotion like that. If I were to start crying over something, what is that gonna be
perceived as? Even though it's a genuine emotion and I want you to know I feel things, if a woman does it,
it's completely different. And if a Black woman does it, it's completely different. So it's all these different
things when you carry marginalized characteristics. So. Being Black and being a female. It has been a
struggle. You have imposter syndrome that you may fight through, especially when you're at that higher
level.
Guest 6 - 00:12:54:
Companies and business in general have been working on. Diversity on DE and I for the better part of. 30
years. And I remember, you know, when I started my career in a very large company. It didn't take long for
me to ask, you know, why aren't there more people who look like me? And the question I would get, I mean,
the answer I would get is. Well, it's a pipeline issue. Right? And so now it's 30 plus years later. And I think to
myself. How can it still be a pipeline issue? Haven't those people grown up? So yeah, you know, so. So
what that says to me is that we can't just look at diversity, equity and inclusion. I think we have to take a step
to the left to say what is feeding that issue. And that's really why I focus on equity and justice in my work with
APCO Worldwide. Because companies need to look at their systems and their structures. And what is in the
way of keeping people, and particularly people of color, people who are underrepresented, you know, what
is keeping us from ascending to the top levels of the organization? And so we have all heard about the
business case for diversity. Which I think is great. But it doesn't matter if it doesn't work. And also when you
think about equity and justice, that also means that. All of your ideas are valued. You're valued. You're not
just included, but you belong. All right, so equity justice is about creating equity and justice. For everybody.
Right, not just. One set of people or one group of people. Because people often will say, we have to correct.
The system. And I want to remind people. The system works exactly as it was intended. To benefit one
group of people. And to disadvantage another group. So it's not about just looking at that system. It's about
dismantling that system and creating a new one. That is built on equity and justice. And I think in your
company, if you can center your company and your company culture on equity and justice. You'll be the
winners in the war for talent, in the war for customers. And in the war for reputation.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:15:26:
You often credit your success in part to having a growth mindset. About what that means.
Sandy Cross - 00:15:36:
Absolutely. Yeah, I think about a growth mindset and that's the idea for me of being coachable, being
hungry, and recognizing that you can always learn something from somebody else. And you can always
learn something from every single situation. And I think if you come to situations and come to conversations
and come to relationships with a growth mindset, that's actually a very inclusive approach, kind of in others'
first mindset. What can you learn? What can you take away? How can you improve not only yourself, but
improve the relationship, improve the outcomes? I think it's incredibly valuable. And I look for that when I am
looking for prospective talent for the PJ of America team, individuals who have a growth mindset versus a
fixed mindset.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:16:36:
And Sandy, that's so great. Tell us, how do you know when someone has a growth mindset? What are you
looking for in those interviews?
Sandy Cross - 00:16:46:
Well, one example, and I was reflecting upon this yesterday, we have 10 summer interns at the PJ of
America. And one in particular, Taylor Greene, I was telling her yesterday that I think one of her greatest
attributes is her growth mindset. And she posed kind of that same question. Well, you know, why did you

say that? Or kind of how did you know that about me? And it's because she regularly asks questions. If
they're not transactional questions or she's just going through the motions or trying to put the spotlight on
herself, they're really thoughtful, reflective questions on whatever the subject matter is. In maybe why we're
doing something or how we might wanna approach something differently. So that's a key thing that I look for
Jackie is somebody who is truly inquisitive, reflective, and wants to deeply understand the why behind
something.
Guest 9 - 00:17:50:
You know, we're trying to put humanity into four boxes, right? So in the beginning, but we very, we don't
believe in type. We start there, that this structure pattern is your preference and it's where you like to hang
out. But you can also go to two of the other patterns really easily and we call that agility. So, and that
happens very quickly, very naturally. And you know, you can move to impact. You can move to clarity.
Those are your two allies. So if you read those reports, they'd feel pretty familiar too. But the stretch edge is
your opposite tilt. And that is the person who's kind of decided everything the opposite of you. What's
beautiful about the natural development process of our human psyche is that we often are attracted to
people that are really different from us. So we also marry them, we have partners, we have best friends, you
know, they keep us straight, right?
Jackie Ferguson - 00:18:49:
Right.
Guest 9 - 00:18:50:
And so I'm sure you have friends that are connection tilt, the cross pollinator, which is, you know, your
social, more of your social networker who knows everyone. And it's constantly persuading and kind of shape
shifting, you know, to the situation. And, you know, that might to a structure person feel like that person
doesn't have any integrity. I don't know who they are. They change. But that person kind of defines work as
relationship building. And they like to avoid tasks and doing things efficiently. So we're kind of the nemesis of
the opposite. But because we're attracted to them, I think we naturally become more like them. If we have
someone in our life that is that opposite pattern. And we only need to be like 10% more like that. In order for
us to not over rely on our preferred pattern. So it's basically a framework that's visual that helps people not
only remember their type, like I found that with Myers-Briggs and others that use letters and kind of obscure
labels, it's hard to remember so you don't apply it.
Guest 10 - 00:20:07:
We just, as humans, we don't like change. We don't like different. And it starts out very, very early. This is a
huge generalization because there's always going to be people who just like very adventurous, the bleeding
edge, early adopter people. And then the people are just like, I like my typewriter. I don't ever want to
change, but it really depends on how close the change will impact us or how closely we perceive it is. So
going back to your, oh, we've got a new system implementation that's coming out. It's the historical basis for
that. So how many times have they rolled something out and it just failed spectacularly? And how many
times have they rolled something out and then it ended up being something completely different. It's having
that trust and that consistency and actually transparency around it. So if I send you an email from Human
Resources and I'm like, good news on our insurance, like, I'm like, What that means is they're changing our
insurance. And that is not good news for me, probably. So just being really transparent about what the
change entails and what it doesn't, and having those communication channels open.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:21:03:
Absolutely. So trust, consistency, transparency, that's so important. Love that. On your LinkedIn, and for
people that don't know, I do a lot of research on our guests before they come on the show, you talk about
your superpower. Will you share what that is with our audience? And then how do we tap into our own
superpower?

Guest 10 - 00:21:28:
So it's interesting because the first time somebody ever asked me is like, what's your superpower? I was
like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, and I immediately went to what my favorite, you
know, Batman, it's my superheroes, but it, it really took me a long, I had taken a writer's retreat. So I just
hold myself up away for four or five days and just got really deep into the value statements of the work that I
do and why, why do I do this? And I realized that my superpower is, it has always been probably. That I am
a trusted guide. And I can help people see what's possible. And I can help lead them. Through whatever
they need to get through.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:22:03:
Mm-hmm.
Guest 11 - 00:22:04:
To get to what's possible. No. And it sounds very. Esoteric or I don't know what the right word is, but that's
really what it is. I can see a traffic in what's possible. And does it mean that it's unrealistic? It means that it's
very optimistically pragmatic.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:22:25:
So often, you know, our natural instinct is to protect ourselves in the workplace.
Guest 12 - 00:22:32:
Yeah.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:22:33:
And we shrink back, but really, if we're thinking about not only ourselves, but those that we're representing,
those that we're fighting for, you know, this next generation, we step up and make these statements and
draw these lines. I love that.
Guest 12 - 00:22:52:
If we can do it, we have to.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:22:53:
Absolutely.
Guest 12 - 00:22:55:
Yeah, that's absolutely the case. There's a lot of people that reach out to me and say things like, thank you
for being yourself, thank you for doing this, because I wouldn't know how to do it if I were, you know, if I had
to do it. And it's like, well. I lived this life, I came up this way, I did like so many years of therapy to make
myself this. So if this helps you, awesome. I'm really excited for that. So, I mean, this is just me becoming
who I've always been, I guess.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:23:24:

I love it. And one more question on this topic, just for those listening, when we step up and draw these lines
and do our best to educate people on where they're missing the mark and where they've got it wrong, right?
What do you recommend that we do or say? Because it's very important in how we approach people,
whether they're gonna be able to receive it or not. And certainly we can't say that everyone will because they
won't. You know, there are a lot of things that come with everyone, right?
Guest 12 - 00:23:56:
With everyone.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:23:57:
So, but what are some of the ways that we can do our best to make sure that we're educating people in the
right way?
Guest 12 - 00:24:06:
So do we mean we as people who are being impacted or do we mean we as people who are in the HR
space or the people space and wanna make sure that people are feeling included? So those are two
different questions. So people come to me and they are being impacted by these things and they are BIPOC
or women or anything. When people come to me and they say, what can I do to make my employer
understand these issues? It's like, oh my God, that's always the worst position to be in. I don't wanna teach
you how to teach them. I wanna teach them how to include you. That's a different thing. I don't feel like it is
the responsibility of BIPOC people to do this work. It drives me, I don't wanna cuss on your thing. It drives
me crazy. Do you know what I mean? It drives me crazy when people gatekeep around that because in my
mind, black women specifically should be driving us forward about how we're going to be inclusive on bigger
things. This stuff right here is level one stuff. The stuff I talk about is level one stuff. Like I'm guarding the
gates of hell here. Y'all go this way and do the real work while I stand here and teach people, not quite
sharing, but like the next level inclusion. For me, I always feel terrible when I see people say, well, how do I
do this? Because it's just more of the same systems. It's you taking on that responsibility because you're the
only one being impacted by it. And I think that's garbage. And I hate seeing companies who say, oh, we're
so proud of our inclusion when I've got employees in there saying, how do I teach this stuff to my boss? So
that's position one. Second thing, if you are leading a team or you're leading a company or anything like that,
there are thousands of things that you can do any minute, person to person, individually or on the company
level at every single level of the employment cycle that can help people feel more included, all kinds of
people. So, I mean, I wrote a book, like let me help you include people, but stop putting it on the people who
are being marginalized by it already. That's the stuff that drives me crazy.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:26:12:
I love that. Oh my goodness. Wow. Wow. Wow. I love that. That's it's so important, right? Because so, so
often, right? And then, you know, my question was, how do we help people understand us better? And
you're like, no, that's not how we approach it. I love that. Thank you.
Guest 13 - 00:26:36:
I also have on the other side, you know, a number of people in the VC space, which is, you know, primarily
run by white men. And you know, even a lot of our local VCs, I'll meet with them and they would like to have,
you know, a stronger pipeline of diverse entrepreneurs and they're there. But it's like, okay, so how do we
want to get those connected? And it takes intentionality, it takes time, it takes investment in relationship
building. So I think that's how do you form relationships between the ecosystems and the VCs? And also,
how do you do that work internal to VCs to make sure that if you, if there's, you know, Jackie, if you're going
and raising money, do you want money from that VC and are they a good partner for you? Right? And so I
think that goes back to who are the people within their mentor network and who are they supporting and who
are their LPs and what are the types of things that they value investing in and all of those things. I think
there's internal work that the VCs need to do, as well as, you know, work and investment in ecosystem
development to support black women founders. And then also, how do we provide those bridges in

between? And I think highlighting the fact that there are these needs and giving people ways to get engaged
and involved is really important. And for people to be able to raise their hand and say, yes, I want to do that.
I see a lot of people. One of the terms that Rodney used in his Juneteenth event, I really loved. He was like,
there's allies that are like on the sidelines cheering us on. He's like, and I love that we want allies, right? But
he's like, there's also co-conspirators. He's like, I would like to see more co-conspirators, which is they're
people who are going to create something together to benefit, you know, black and brown men and women.
Right? He's like, and then there's accomplices that we can not only work together or write a check or
something like that, right? So co-conspirators sign up with your checkbook, sign up with your time. Let's dig
in, right? Accomplices are how can we create something new together to actually benefit different groups?
Jackie Ferguson - 00:28:54:
You were the first out transgender bride to be, to appear on the show, Say Yes to the Dress Atlanta. How
was that experience for you?
Precious Brady-Davis - 00:29:04:
It was such a great experience. It was a dream come true. So I didn't reach out to them. They originally
reached out to me and I had the opportunity to actually go on either of the franchises. I could have gone to
Kleinfeld in New York or I could have gone to Bridals by Lori, which I ultimately chose. It was such a dream
come true. It was actually overwhelming because there were so many choices, obviously, folks on the show
know that I ultimately did not pick one of the dresses that was there. I had a dress custom made for me,
which was such a life moment to have my wedding dress, my wedding gown, to have it custom made, a
couture piece for my Cinderella wedding. It was absolutely humble. And one of the things that I loved about
filming it is, Lori and Monte, the host of the show, they were so in tune to the sensitivity of moment. There
was nothing different about my experience because I was a trans woman. I was a trans woman shopping for
her wedding dress. It was a life moment. And for me, it was about finding the best dress that fit me. And
that's the thing that I loved about it, that there was nothing extra or anything different about that appointment.
And it was absolutely affirmational. And I'm so glad that I did it. That's why Miles and I went on the show, to
show that trans love is a possibility. As you've heard, we've had some amazing guests join us for some very
important conversations. And I'm so excited for you to hear what's in store for season five. And if you haven't
already, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast so you'll be
notified when we come back. Until then, be sure to visit thediversitymovement.com for more podcasts,
articles, and educational content. This episode was edited and produced by Earfluence . I'm Jackie
Ferguson and I'll talk with you next time on Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast.