Embracing Authenticity and Joy: Kamini Wood’s Transformative Insights on Diversity Beyond the Checkbox

Jackie - 00:00:10:

You're listening to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox Podcast, brought to you by the The Diversity Movement. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, speaker, and human rights advocate. On this show, I'm talking to trailblazers... Game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share their inspiring stories and insights on business inclusion and personal development. Thank you for downloading this episode. I am truly grateful for you. Enjoy the show. Last week, we talked with world-renowned deep listening expert, Oscar Trimboli, to learn tips and strategies on how to listen. Let's get into the rest of the episode. Let's talk a little about your podcast. It's an award-winning podcast. And I'm sure that for those of us listening, we can already see why. Will you share a little about your audience and your format and why it would benefit us to listen?

Oscar - 00:01:13:

Well, Let me go back to a workshop in Melbourne where a beautiful man was sitting next to me. His name was Dermot. And Dermot is from Ireland and he's got, I'm not going to try and do an Irish accent, but it's just so lyrical. There's a reason why. Ireland, with such a small population, has more literature Nobel Prize Laureates in Literature than any other country on earth. Anyway, I said to Dermot, Dermot, Dermot, I'm really struggling. Nobody's reading my newsletter about listening. And I'm just really struggling. I don't know what to do. Have you got any advice? And he said, and this is the only bit I'll try and say, he says, you idiot. It's like, yeah, okay, Dermot, I know I'm an idiot. Is that your advice? He says, you're an idiot. It's about listening. Make a podcast. Ah, a podcast, right. So in 2017, I said, Dermot, will you help me? He says, not only will I help you, Oscar Trimboli, he says, there's a couple of people I know in this room at the lunch break. Let's get a piece of butcher paper and let's kind of do it together. So we did, and we wrote a list of all the people I should interview about how they listen. Dolphin trainers, dog trainers, deaf people, blind people, funeral directors, palliative care nurses, journalists, judges, hostage negotiators, anthropologists, the list just goes on and on and on, air traffic controllers. So we started interviewing this deliberately diverse group of listeners. We actually have an age criteria. So half need to be over 50, half need to be under 50. Half English is not their first language. Half English is their first language. Half and half across genders, half and half across professional listeners versus listeners. Personal listeners. So a palliative care nurse we would call a personal listener. And some of the most powerful interviews we've done is – I did an interview with someone who was completely blind at birth, and he's done an amazing TED Talk. Typically, most people just put their laptops on when we do the interview and we interview them at the computer's. With this interview, selfie stick in hand, we were guided around his home. He showed me his cats. He took me out to his Orange County neighborhood and showed me all around that. And he said, I think it was important you know me rather than my story that you may want to interview me for. And then we had the interview with a completely blind person about how they listen. And the way he listened to me during the interview was, is probably some of the most profound listening I've ever heard because the way he talked about my use of language, nobody had actually ever referred back to me, probably except for Tracy. And I found that Daniel in that moment, Daniel Kirsch, who's done an amazing TED Talk, about how he uses echolocation to navigate the world as a completely blind person. And today, he rides mountain bikes using this technique, and he teaches other people how to use mountain bikes using this technique. And whether it was him or Dame Evelyn Glennie, a world champion percussionist, drummer, who's completely deaf. They all taught me something really, really powerful about listening. So we've curated a very, very diverse set of workplace and personal listeners that all will give you one or two tips to improve how you listen in the workplace. And, you know, you don't hear much from me, which is good. It's 95% them talking and about 5% of my questions in there as well.

Jackie - 00:05:26:

That's amazing. Oscar Trimboli, let's talk about your book, How to Listen, Discover the Hidden Key to Better Communication. And it's great because There are so many amazing stories in there, which is clear from just from this podcast. But there are so many wow moments, like listening for differences, not similarities, listening for capital letters, right? That was super interesting. Paying attention versus giving attention, which we talked about. Can you share a couple of things that readers will learn from reading your book? And I've been talking about this book for a solid week. You know, I always try to at least skim my author's books to, you know, like, okay, let me get a couple of highlights. And I started it and could not put it down.

Oscar - 00:06:24:

Well, let's start with you. What's the big one takeaway you've taken away from the book? Because you've listed off a lot, but what's the one takeaway for you?

Jackie - 00:06:34:

So one of the things that I thought was really interesting and I never thought about was slowing down your breathing. Okay. To listen better. And what I've realized after reading that is when I'm really interested, like now, in a conversation, my breathing naturally slows down. And I never paid attention to that until... I read your book and it said, slow your breathing down. So slowing my breathing down allows me to mimic how my body responds when I'm really interested and gives me an opportunity to pay better to give not pay, but better attention, which I thought was really interesting.

Oscar - 00:07:20:

And apart from today, have you used that technique in any other kind of conversation or situation? Have you noticed the difference it makes for you?

Jackie - 00:07:30:

I have. So over the past few days, I've tried it a couple of times, but it wasn't until today that I realized that when I'm just really interested in a conversation, my breathing naturally slows down. So I put that together while we were talking. It's like, okay, okay. That's really interesting. So thinking about my breathing a little bit and slowing that breathing down helps me to pay attention because it's when you're fast breathing, you're over here thinking about this and this thing. And, you know, is that paint on the ceiling and what, you know, whatever, whatever is distracting you in, in the moment, slowing down your breathing and being more intentional and deliberate about what your body is doing also allows you to slow down the busyness of your brain a little bit, which I think is helpful.

Oscar - 00:08:29:

And as you said, when you are attracted to the conversation or the topic is interesting. What I'm really curious about is what happens when it's not for you? Because over the week, you've had some conversations that are not interesting. You really don't want to pay attention. Rather than notice how you are listening, what are those conversations kind of have in common that aren't helpful for you? Because there are techniques I use as a speaker, right? Such as pausing To emphasize a point... That I know is like a little magnet pulling you closer and closer in. So I'm curious, Jackie Ferguson, do you notice the characteristics of the conversations that aren't as engaging for you? Because I think they're the majority and it will be helpful for you to explore and more importantly for others.

Jackie - 00:09:27:

I think it's conversations that are redundant things I already know. It's certainly conversations where people are speaking in a monotone way. And then also where people are taking a really long time to form their thoughts. Because in between those things, in those pauses that are not to draw in, but just to gather thoughts, I find that I start thinking about other things and then coming back to when they're ready. Which is not great way to listen.

Oscar - 00:10:07:

 All right. So I believe that's really common, not just for you, but for others listening. Would it be helpful for me to give you a few techniques from the book that will help you with that situation? Yes, please. Okay. So tip number one is at the beginning of every conversation, whether this is one-on-one in a paired conversation or a group contact, whether this is video or on a phone call, This question... Is the most potent question you can ever use to improve your listening And more importantly, they're speaking. So it's both sides of the equation. When you use this question, The speaker will give you a permission slip to interrupt them when they're boring, when they're repetitive, when they're stuck. And they will be happy for you to use the interruption because you gave them permission to interrupt. This question will also shorten your meetings. Woo-hoo! Who doesn't want a shorter meeting, right? Yes. Now, one way to shorten your meeting is not to schedule meetings to start at the top of the hour. Schedule your meetings. If you're the meeting host, just go and practice this for the next month. You'll have shorter meetings. Start at five after the hour and finish at five to the hour if we're using one hour as a meeting constraint or start at five after the hour and finish at... Five, 20 past the, 25 past the hour. A half an hour meeting should be a 20 minute meeting. And the reason you can make them shorter is this question. Now, why do we make a meeting start off the hour? The reason we start a meeting off the hour is you're creating a listening environment for all participants. Now, imagine you're on a group video and six people have been invited. This is what happens. The meeting's at top of the hour and the host is ready to go. And some keen bean is on at the top of the hour and then one minute after the hour and then two minutes after the hour, three minutes after the hour, people are joining. And eventually... Super excited. Sally, arise to the meeting. Hey, Oscar Trimboli, sorry I'm late. I got a back-to-back and I'm here now and I'm ready to go. Well, they're not actually. They've arrived physically, but mentally they are not there. It will take them the best part of five minutes to decompress from the last meeting process what they need to and get themselves into the conversation. Your meeting started at the top of the hour and at 10 past the hour, they'll be ready. Or you can create this meeting environment. We start the meeting at five after the hour. Roughly, everyone arrives a little bit early and go, oh, yeah, this is awesome. I love coming to your meetings, Jackie Ferguson, because they start at five after the hour. I've got time to go to the restroom, grab a glass of water, collect my thoughts, whatever. And super excited, Sally still arrives at five after the hour. And she realizes for the first time in her work life, she's on time. And she's so excited because she's available to the meeting. Now, when everybody is present, you can have an effective conversation. So a good meeting host gets everybody to listen to them or the current speaker. A great meeting host gets everybody to listen to each other because the power of that is diverse voices are heard and all voices are heard as well. Now, I'm sure you're all wondering, what's this question? Oscar Trimboli, have you forgotten about that question? It's a simple question. It's a very specific question, though. Be careful with this question. The question is, what would make this a great conversation? Or what will make this a great discussion? Do not ask them this question, though. Jackie Ferguson, what would make this a great discussion for you? Because people are inherently... Selfish and self-orientated. That's not good or bad. As a leader, you want to create and curate an environment where everybody is is focusing on the outcome and the dialogue, not themselves. By asking this question, hey, Jackie Ferguson, what will make this a good conversation? You could say, hey, what will make this an awesome, excellent, doesn't matter. What will make this a great conversation today? But don't say for you. Now, most cases, people won't ask you the opposite question back. Thanks, Jackie Ferguson. That's great. And Jackie Ferguson doesn't ask me what would make it a good conversation. Then you simply say, and for me, a great conversation would be that and whatever. Imagine it's a one-on-one conversation, Jackie Ferguson and I having a chat, but Jackie's just going on about this story about being distracted over and over and over and over and over again. Yet she didn't want, that wasn't the context for a good meeting. So there is a professional, skillful, and elegant way to interrupt. Never cut someone off mid-sentence, never cut somebody off mid-breath, never cut someone off mid-thought. Let them get that out. And when they do, there will be a little gap. And just simply say, hey, Jackie Ferguson, at the beginning of our conversation, you said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll make this a good conversation. How are we going? Three things may happen. Jackie Ferguson might say, oh, yeah, I got a bit off track with that story, Oscar Trimboli. Let's come back. Hey, Oscar Trimboli. Thanks. The reason I talk about a story is nobody's actually listened to me in the past. And if you just give me five more minutes, I'm going to explain why that's really important to me. Or... Jackie Ferguson will say, yeah, you know what, I probably need to stop that story because in telling that story what I've realised we should be discussing is something else altogether. There's always a fourth option where they go, hey, you know what? Um, yeah, Now's not a good time to talk about it. Can we just reschedule this meeting? Which is often a good outcome for all of it. Now, this question allows you to interrupt. If they get off track, you know, they start here and they meander way over there. You can use that same question again and check in with that question if you're using a one-hour meeting as a construct roughly every 15 minutes. And what you'll find is you signal to the person that you are listening to them because you play back what they said at the beginning of the meeting. And when people go, wow, Jackie Ferguson really listened to what I said and use it in context back to them, They'll feel seen, heard, and valued, and they'll start to tell you things they've never told other people before. Your relationship will increase, but more importantly, the kinds of errors, mistakes, miscommunications, or friction in relationship will evaporate. Because you've got this little permission slip, your listening compass that helps us guide, not just me as the listener, not just them as the speaker, but both of us or the group to move forward. Jackie Ferguson, how could you use that question to going forward.

Jackie - 00:18:03:

Well, first I was taking notes as you were saying that because I'm about to change all my meetings at the top of the year. Start five minutes after the hour. That's such a smart strategy. And then, right, we're so often locked into these stories or long-windedness, and we feel like We don't want to interrupt because it's rude. We want to give people space, but coming back to those initial, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Initial, like it's an initial contract of here's what we're going to talk about. And then restating that allows us to bring the conversation. Back on track. Without being rude, without being dismissive, And I think that so many of us need that strategy because we don't want to be rude and interrupt, but we also need to make sure that our meetings stay within the time, right? And so we've got often a one hour meeting that's now an hour and 15 minutes because of a series of stories that we're saying, this has in our heads right now, we're not even listening to the story because we're saying this has nothing to do with why we're here, you know, this is cutting into another meeting and all of the things that go through our head. So we're not even listening to the story that's being told or the information that's being shared. So I love that. And I definitely plan to employ those strategies immediately.

Oscar - 00:19:41:

Thank you for that. Here's a ninja move when you're getting to the back half of the meeting. Jackie Ferguson, given the balance of our time, where would you like to focus? And by the way, Jackie Ferguson, given the balance of our time, where would you like to focus?

Jackie - 00:20:00:

Oscar, your book is dedicated to your father who had a stroke and lost the ability to speak. You say that he taught you to listen without words. Can you share more about that experience with your father?

Oscar - 00:20:14:

Yeah, we're in the middle of COVID lockdown when this happened. And I have to preempt this by saying I'm very grateful to all the people medical professionals and care providers that have been around my father because he, through speech therapy and many other help, he's been able to regain the use of his tongue. So in the middle of COVID, he had a stroke and I had to live about an hour and a bit away from my dad. I had to get to my dad's home and he was just struggling with all kinds of things. And We got him into a stroke unit and he was in a stroke unit for two weeks and then he was in rehab for about eight weeks and then he was in respite for about another six weeks. And eventually he came home and as we're driving home, dad said to me, I said, Dad, what's the first thing you want to do when you get home? And he said, I want to kiss the ground when I arrive like the Pope, you know. And then he said... But I can't because I'm worried I won't be able to get back up again. So for about... Eight days, my dad couldn't swallow and he couldn't form words. The stroke had impacted his tongue. And I think unless you lose the use of your tongue, you don't realise how critical it is to basic things. So he had to drink thickened water? I didn't know that was a thing. He had to basically... He loved the hospital custard and I still bring custard to my dad and we tell stories about that. But I'm going to go... Really quickly, Alan was a really good neighbor to my dad, and Alan had checked out, but they brought his breakfast one morning, and dad had finished his custard, but he noticed Alan's custard was on the table, and he kind of looked over there and was like, I had to do this commando move to sneak over there and grab the custard and bring it back to my dad. But for a while, right at the beginning, when the impact of the stroke was most severe, in my dad's eyes, because he couldn't speak and form words, I could see fear. I could see anger. I could see frustration. I could see... In him at that moment, somebody who was struggling with an identity that was about self-sufficiency and resilience. My dad moved to this country at the age of 14. He couldn't speak the language. He didn't own a pair of shoes till he moved to Australia. He was somebody who literally had learnt the language all by himself. He'd learnt to speak rage, English, doing maths all by himself. And when you take away somebody's independence... Not only couldn't he move on the left side of his body, he couldn't walk. I failed to mention that, I'm sorry. So he couldn't walk and he couldn't talk. And we just worked on a system, and the system was this. When he wanted to say no to a doctor or a nurse or a caregiver or whatever, anybody like that. He would squeeze my hand once And yes, it's squeeze my hand twice kind of thing. And what I noticed was that we had to come up with this system because the medical profession, when they were talking about my father's situation, would always direct their eye gaze and the conversation to me. Standing up at the side of the bed. Now, I'm very fortunate. I've got a very good friend, Corrine Johnson, out of the Netherlands. She's a chief listening officer for a hospital system. And it's a very enlightened hospital system. And I messaged Corrine and I said, look, this is happening. Throw me a bone here. What can I do? And she said, whenever the medical professionals are in the room, just move your head as close as possible to your dad's head. So he can commence being connected to his recovery. Because when the medical profession directs their communication to the parents, the children, the associated people around the person, they don't engage the patient, the patient feels disconnected. And from that point on, I know that was a critical point as they started talking directly to my dad, that he felt he had agency to own his recovery. Up until that point, he was deflated. He was a deflated 81-year-old man who I believe wanted to give up. Yet in listening to Corin and coming closer to my dad so the caregivers and doctors could direct their comments to him. Something changed. And he engaged with his speech pathologist very differently from that point on. He still loves custard, don't get me wrong. And now we have different conversations. We have Pizza Friday and it's like, you know, I always got to check in what kind of pizza dad wants. And now he sent me a challenge. Enough with the pizzas you get from the wood-fired pizza oven place, now he wants me to make pizzas for him. So I'm learning how to roll pizza dough. So easier said than done.

Jackie - 00:26:03:

Definitely.

Oscar - 00:26:04:

So my dad's stroke stopped the creation of the book. Because I was literally in the middle of writing final manuscripts and I had to explain to the publisher that I couldn't continue and I wrote a different and better book as a result of my dad's stroke.

Jackie - 00:26:24:

Wow. Thank you for sharing that story, Oscar Trimboli. That's amazing. I'm so glad that your dad's doing well. Your book says if you want to be heard, you need to know how to listen. When we think about deep listening in both our personal lives and our professional lives, just to reinforce what are some of the benefits that we get in relationships by deep listening.

Oscar - 00:26:55:

All the research we do is in workplace listening. Yet, Mic phoned me on a Monday morning And deep listening got him better sex. Now, it's not the answer you were expecting, was it?

Jackie - 00:27:11:

Not

Oscar- 00:27:13:

So he rings me up. On a Monday morning, I'm crossing a bridge into the city and I see his number come up. I say, good morning. He goes, you nearly cost me my marriage. I was like, oh, good morning, Mic. How are you? He says, last Friday night, My wife got really upset with me. And I said, oh, okay, tell me more. We put our kids to bed. She'd come down the stairs and I was cleaning up. And she said to me, We need to talk. We need to have a discussion. And we both sat down at the dining room table. And my wife said to me, I know you're having an affair. I can handle it. You just need to tell me who it is. So Mic said, in his head, he's screaming because he knows he's not having an affair. He didn't say anything. He didn't do anything. He just listened. And his wife said, something's obviously changed in the last 90 days. The way you behave around me is completely different. I know you're having an affair. And again, Mic in his head and he's screaming. Now Mic is also a bit of a joker. And Mic said to his wife... Honey, it's not what you think. And she screamed at him and she goes, I can handle the truth, just tell me who it is. She goes, it's not what you think. It's a man. And his wife bursts into tears and goes, no, no, no, no, no. There's a man who's teaching me how to listen. And with that, the conversation changed, and he explained what was going on. And as Mic said, that Friday night was better than his honeymoon night. But we won't go there. So deep listening could get you better sex. I love it.

Jackie - 00:29:19:

I love it. Thank you.

Oscar - 00:29:24:

In the workplace, it's going to get you better relationships. It's going to get... Customers who stay with you longer. It's going to get employees that give you more discretionary effort and you're going to hear from people you never heard before who are going to bring about innovation, profitability and impact in ways you could never imagine. Because organizations at their heart are not systems, processes, and profit and losses. People with passion who  are purposeful about the impact they want to make on the world, and they will give you more effort if you take the time to listen to them.

Jackie - 00:30:05:

Amazing. Oscar Trimboli, we did get one question from our producer and I want to take just a quick moment to ask this because it's such a great question. How do you have an effective conversation with someone you don't feel is actually listening to you?

Oscar - 00:30:22:

There's two dimensions to this question. It's the way you're showing up and telling your story. And there's the way they're listening to your story as well. What the story implies is the two people or more who are in a conversation are communicating on completely different frequencies. So in the book, we talk about some people have a communication frequency to talk about the future. Whereas some people want to talk in the present or the past. Some people want to talk about the problem, whereas some people want to talk about the solution. Some people want to talk about the big picture. Some people want to talk about the details. And typically when we go, people don't want to listen to us because there's a mismatch in one of those communication styles. And as a speaker, one of the things we want to do is check in we're going along the way. Have you noticed I've used that today with you, by the way, Jackie Ferguson? So I've asked you for your reflections or maybe how you might use that as an example. And when we're not familiar with each other, we want to check in more regularly than less. And then the opportunity is there. So the first responsibility on you as the speaker is to make sure you're noticing at what point are they checking out? And if you... Are noticing and you are checking in, but they keep drifting and, you know, they're just not into it, the conversation, or they're just not into you, the relationship. The most potent thing you can often do as a speaker to draw that person back into listening to you is to use this very simple yet powerful technique. You'll need to practice. Give your attention very carefully right now because it's a really short technique. Here it is. Listen carefully. Now don't worry, nothing froze. Think broke yeah If you can use a pause, it's a magnet to pull the attention of the other person back into the conversation. And if it doesn't work, You can simply say this. Jackie Ferguson, our sense now might not be a good time for this conversation. Sometimes our listening batteries get a little drained. Would you prefer to reschedule or to this question at the beginning, Earlier on, you said this would make it a good conversation. Has anything changed? And that gives them the opportunity to come back into the conversation. So a hat tip to Cece for a great question. And I'm glad we gave her some extra time to come up with an approach that will be helpful. Thanks for listening, Cece.

Jackie - 00:33:27:

Oscar, this has been so amazing. So many amazing, amazing tips. What do you want to leave our listeners with today? And how can our listeners connect with you, learn more about your podcast? Buy this amazing book, how can they get in touch with you?

Oscar - 00:33:48:

Well, this is going to sound weird. Please don't get in touch with me. Get in touch with your listening. Take the listening quiz. Visit listeningquiz.com. It's a seven-minute quiz. You answer 20 questions and you discover the primary barrier that gets in the way of your listening and three tips about what to do about it. On that report, you'll get all the ways you can connect with me or the How to Listen book. But for me, the gift you would give me is to learn a little bit more about your listening rather than connecting with me. Because I think ultimately, when you're on a quest to create 100 million deep listeners in the workplace, if I connect with 100 million people, that can be quite draining. If you connect with your own listening, that will be powerful and make a big impact in your world.

Jackie - 00:34:40:

Amazing. Oscar, thank you so much. This has been such an amazing conversation. I appreciate you. I appreciate your time and your insights. Thanks.

Oscar - 00:34:51:

Thanks for listening.

Jackie - 00:34:58:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become a part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, and TikTok. This show is proudly part of the Living Corporate Network and was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.