Empowering Voices & Transformative Insights: A Journey Through Season 9

Jackie Ferguson - 00:00:09:

You're listening to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox, proudly presented by the Diversity Movement and part of the Living Corporate Network. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, business leader, and human rights advocate. On this show, we dive deep into the stories of trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share insights and professional success and personal development. Season 10 is just a few weeks away, but before we jump in, we wanted to share a few of our favorite moments from season nine with you. Last season, I talked with our incredible guests about leading with empathy, shattering limitations, deep listening, and so much more. I know you'll enjoy it. Talk soon. 

Oscar – 00:00:56:

Well, many people have heard about active listening. That's listening to what people say. It's kind of paraphrasing back to them and nodding and, mm-hmm, yeah, mm-hmm. So active listening is noticing what people say. Deep listening is noticing what people don't say. And when you understand the maths, the neuroscience of listening, I speak at 125 to 150 words per minute. You may speak a little quicker than me. Yet. The average person will think at about 900 words per minute. That can range from 600 words per minute to 1,600 words per minute. But on average, let's say 900. That means that the very first thing somebody says is about 14% of what they think and what they mean. So deep listening is hearing the 86% of what people don't say. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:01:51:

Yes. And you know, Oscar, I'm the type of person that I thought active listening is as far as I need to go, right? Pay attention when someone's listening because so many of us will be listening, listening, right? I'm doing air quotes for people that are listening to the audio, to people talking, but really they're saying, what do I have to do for work? And what am I going to have for dinner? And all of these different things. And they're, as you said, in the beginning, uh-huhing you to death and not really hearing what you're saying, not just paying attention to body language and the unsaid things, which we're going to get into, but really not even hearing what you're saying. Tell me, Oscar, why is this such a necessary skill for all of us? 

Oscar – 00:02:39:

Yeah. I'm going to come back to that question, but Jackie, I noticed you use this phrase to pay attention. Just earlier on. One of the things I want us all to become conscious of when we say pay attention, that's one form of attention. Another form of attention is to give attention. So when we think about paying for something, we think we have to do it. It's an obligation. It's like taxation. We have to do it. Yet when we give attention, it's an act of curiosity. It's an act of generosity. It's an act that is inclusive of both me as the speaker and you as the listener. So when we think about even before we arrive to the conversation, notice the quality of attention you bring. Now, be careful. You can't give attention the whole time. Nor can you pay attention the whole time because we're wired to be distracted. So we're going to listen much faster than what we can speak. And this is why listening without any training seems really hard and has some really big consequences to it as well. So during this conversation, notice, are you giving attention? Are you paying attention? So, Jackie, I'm just curious. As you hear me talk about the difference between the two qualities of attention, what's that got you thinking? 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:04:08:

Now, Axel, tell me how accountability is so important. Other than transparency, what are some other ways that we can create and sustain accountability in our organizations? 

Axel – 00:04:21:

Yeah. I think the data, as I mentioned, is where to start, but I don't think it can end with the data. I think there's so much. Information out there if you're willing to ask for it. And I think that one way that we really look at accountability is we set expectations for how our people should act and show up. And we are consistently asking our people, what are you personally doing to make this company more inclusive today? And we tell our managers, ask your direct reports that question, because every time you ask that question, it accelerates our work, it keeps us accountable. And it makes people realize that that's what we value. Because, you know, when we're looking at it, every single person who takes intentional action makes MIQ the place we all want to work. So by keeping that question just part of how we operate helps people really internalize the fact that it takes deliberate and intentional action to be inclusive. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:05:27:

Lena, there's a language that indicates bias in interviewing. What are some of the words that we should look out for in interviews? From an HR or hiring manager perspective that indicates potential inequity in recruiting.

Lena – 00:05:47:

Some things that you probably... Shouldn't hear and probably should be avoided are some phrases that speak to ageism like digitally savvy or this person we're looking for needs to be really recent college graduate. You can't be digitally challenged or things like that that speak to ageism. You probably want to avoid phrases like that. And then things that speak to maybe gender bias. Like. Looking for someone with bubbly personality. Normally not associated with... Male gender, right? So you don't want to say things like that and be careful about. Referring to people's wife or husband. When they may not have one, they may just refer to it as spouse. And that whole inclusive language is a big part in how I think companies and we talk to companies about training their interview teams and their hiring managers on inclusive language so that those kinds of phrases can be avoided because it will indicate or trigger someone's thinking that there may be bias in this whole assessment and the whole process. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:07:08:

Absolutely. And you can learn, you can lose some of your top candidates right there in the interview by some of the words and language that you use. I agree with that. 

Lena – 00:07:18:

A big one is... Well, you're very articulate. That is a big red flag to a lot of people, particularly the people of color and women, because it's been used in a derogatory way or a way that's been harmful to progression in the past. Absolutely. That's a big one. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:07:42:

Minette, what do leaders often get wrong about inclusive leadership? 

Minette – 00:07:48:

I think one of the first things is that they forget about the inclusive part and they really focus on diversity hiring. Because it's often tied in with DEI, right? And we think, if only I can get my metrics to be better, then I'm done. And I think that that's a bit backwards. In fact, I have this talk that I'm doing next, it's coming up soon, that I called Inclusion Comes First. Because, and the reason I think that is that I think if we focus on diversity hiring, and then we think, oh, now I need to work on inclusion and being a more inclusive leader, we do have it backwards. Because if we bring people from all walks of life and all backgrounds and all ethnicities and ages and cultures, et cetera, and we bring them into a company that is not inclusive and that really has this sort of dominant culture and everyone else is an outsider, well, those people are not going to feel welcome. And they're not going to feel they can show up as themselves. We talk about showing up as yourself and bringing your full self to work. And no one's going to do that if the culture doesn't invite that, right? And so I think where leaders can... And get that wrong is to be only focused on the numbers and not think about what am I doing as a leader to create a culture where if I bring someone in who is neurodivergent, that they are going to be able to fully participate. If I bring someone in who's from a very different culture, how are they going to feel? So I think we have to think, if not first inclusion, then diversity, that we have to think at least simultaneously, these things are so important. And then the other thing that I think where leaders stumble is that they still have that mindset of, I need to get it right. I'm a leader. I need to get it right. And I don't know how you find this, Jackie, but I find all topics around human beings messy. It's not, you can't get it right. Human beings are so complex, right? And so what works for one person may not work for another. And you are going to get it wrong. We are all going to get it wrong. I get it wrong all the time. And being able to realize that and continue learning and continue doing better and repairing any damage that has been done when you do get it wrong. I think that's the part where leaders are like, this is too risky. I'm not going to do anything. So that's why I use that word boldly. I think you need to go boldly toward that discomfort and realize even if I'm not perfect and I'm going to make mistakes along the way, this is still important work and it's worth doing. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:10:21:

So many of us of all demographics have experienced covering in the workplace and in our personal environments. Josh, from your perspective, why do we put these walls up? Why do we feel we need to put these walls up? 

Josh – 00:10:35:

Think there's a lot of reasons for that. And over the past few years, you know, I've done a variety of interviews and research. Deloitte put out a report called Uncovering Talent. And across all of their work, my work and the work of others, you can see covering across all groups, straight white men, women of color, LGBTQ plus folks, people with disabilities and more. And I think there's a variety of reasons that that happens. People are thinking about their safety. They're thinking about in the back of your mind, you have these words, these thoughts of, oh, I'm supposed to be this, or I should be doing that. And that impacts how we show up. It could be the fear of being fired. It could be the cultural norms of groups we are a part of and limiting mental models. And so if we can recognize all of those dynamics that are at play and recognize where that impacts us as individuals, that also gives us the opportunity to kind of rewire and to update that operating system a little bit. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:11:38:

Absolutely. Let's talk about some of the impacts of covering on our physical and emotional well-being. Can you share some of those with us? 

Josh – 00:11:48:

So as I've talked to people from corporate to higher ed to nonprofits to the political sphere, when I asked them to describe how covering impacted them, people often used words like it made them feel lonely, it made them feel isolated, stressed, depleted, exhausted, and burned out. And so from a physical, emotional place, all of those types of things really impact. Our overall well-being, it can impact our sleep, it can impact our personal relationships. And as that trickles then into how we show up in the workplace, if we look at burnout, for example, Gallup did a poll and their estimate was that it costs employers a third of someone's salary annually if that employee is experiencing burnout. And so that just demonstrates while this has such an individual potential impact, physical and emotional, it also can cascade into the workplace in that way. I mentioned my journey to uncover earlier. And for me, one of the ways that it impacted my well-being is that I was using unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with covering. So for me, a lot of that was connected to drinking alcohol, large quantities of alcohol that started when I was in high school and it carried forward. And so as I was going through my self-discovery journey, I actually had to come to terms with the role that alcohol was playing as a contributor to that. And so I've now been sober for a number of years, which has been, that's been really helpful in that journey. But that just speaks to sometimes we don't even realize how interconnected the different facets of covering, coping, and these well-being impacts are. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:13:44:

What advice do you give to people who are afraid to break their vases? But need to fulfill their potential and pursue happiness for themselves. 

Speaker 1 – 00:13:53:

Yeah. The first thing I want to share with them is their feeling is very, very common. It's not just them. Every single person I interact with, they're afraid of breaking their vases, of challenging the norm, of being okay with them being different. And so I feel there's some kind of a power when we realize we're not alone. You're not alone. Nobody who feels these things are alone. And why do we have these fears? Because we're afraid of the consequences. We're afraid of being labeled a failure. We're afraid of losing something that is meaningful for us. We're afraid of death threats. And as a result, we keep doing the same thing and we're not changing it. We're passing it to the next generation. So my advice to them is first, be very careful who you're surrounding yourself with, because I realize when I have people who keep telling me, you can't, you can't, you're not good enough, I start believing that. And start surrounding yourself with people who believe in you. I know sometimes we cannot eliminate everybody in our lives, but to be very selective about the time and who we are investing the time with. The other thing is to start really spending time to understand what are we passionate about. When we get to a point when our passion is so important, we're going to start to really start to understand what we're passionate about. So much bigger than the fear. That's the goal. That's the moment when we realize, wow, my passion of what I want to accomplish or my, the goal that I'm creating for my life is so much bigger than the fear that comes with it. I believe that is just so powerful in my situation. My goal of just being myself and being respected for who I am was so much bigger than the fear of the consequences and all of these things. So that is the other thing that I recommend is for us to start reflecting and asking, why am I interested in this? List down all your fears. Invest in yourself. I realize a lot of people just start maybe taking courses about that thing that you're trying to accomplish. Maybe you want to start your business. Start taking courses about entrepreneurship. Start building this fire inside of you. And in a way, what do you need to do to allow your beautiful dough to rise and identify what is pushing you down and try to eliminate these things? What's pushing us down is fear of the consequences, fear of what people are going to think about us, fear of being judged. But what can we do in order to build it up? 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:16:41:

Trish, when we think about DEI, we know that it has to be woven into every part of our business, but it's especially important in our business communications. Can you describe why DEI is so important to business communications in general, and then also the nuance in communicating as a DEI leader at a global organization? 

Trish – 00:17:05:

So, Kai, I'm going to answer the first one first, because I actually... Yeah. I look at them through different, not different lenses, but they are interesting. One through a comms lens and then one which is about communicating to diverse audiences writ large. And then one is as a DEI communicator. How do you do that? Right. In terms of the DEI work. Right. So the first one is, look, the world is diverse. We're in a global marketplace. The world is increasingly diverse. It's the most diverse it's been in history. You have more, you have up to six age groups within the workforce for the first time ever. You have more women in the workforce than ever. We have an increasingly younger generation coming into the workforce that has different expectations, right? So the reality is you cannot do business no matter what your business is in today's global marketplace without diversity, without diverse voices, without diverse perspectives, without diverse inputs in order to be effective. You can be successful, but you can't be as successful as you could be. Right. And and have whatever market share, whatever you do or whatever you buy, whatever services you offer without it. Right. So you have to have diversity. So there is in that it's how are you communicating with those diverse stakeholders, consumers, whomever it might be. How are you doing that in a way that reaches and resonates with them? Are you communicating in a way that really allows them to capture them, to engage them, to invite them to be a part of whatever it is you're offering, providing, selling? We've all seen those instances where we wonder who was at the table when this was created. Like who greenlighted this? Who wrote this? Who picked these images? Who thought this would be the right spokesperson? Right? All of those things. And that's because I believe that there's lack of diversity in the creation of, in the messaging development around it and all of that. And so for me, so when I talk about the importance of diversity in comms, that's one. In terms of DEI, communicating DEI strategies, DEI programming initiatives. It sort of goes back to what I was sharing before about diversity of voice, right? It cannot only be something that the DEI lead is communicating. It has to be supported top down, bottom up. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:19:34:

Josh, you know, on your site, joshhaymond.com, the header reads, Lead With Empathy. And I think we are starting to be able to understand what that means for you. But can you share with us what leading with empathy means? 

Josh – 00:19:42:

Absolutely. I think for me, you know. Trying to enter. Every interaction, every conversation. Whether it's with a team member, whether it's with a client, whether it's with someone I'm meeting for the first time. I think it's just really important that. We enter into all those interactions that we have. Hundreds per day, right, in some cases, and know that... We don't. Always know what someone's history looks like. We don't know what their mourning looked like, let alone their history. But the idea that... You know, people are. Going through what they're going through. And we all have our different challenges that we're working through at a given point in time, I think is just. So paramount to how we connect with one another. And so... It's very easy for... You know, if someone's defensive when you're giving them feedback that you think is constructive, it's very easy to shut down. Right. And and get frustrated in that moment because that person doesn't take feedback well when in reality. We've got to take a step back and realize, you know. Our job, you know, our side hustles, our community interests, our hobbies, these are all... Very small pieces of who we are as people in totality. And so. My leadership style as it relates to managing my team, but also how I hope they manage their teams as well, is just really focused on knowing that, yes, we have to have a successful business. But first and foremost, before there can be any level of business success. We have to care for one another. We have to care for the people we're interacting with on a daily basis and understand that we all come from different experiences and we're going through different things as we speak. So we got to ask questions and we've got to listen and we've got to understand that everyone has a different motivation for why they're here doing what they're doing. And just being curious about, you know, how people tick and how and why they are a certain way or come across a certain way, I think is something for me that I look at my job and. I think in a different world, you know, I could have been or would have been a psychologist just in terms of how interested I am and how people operate and tick. And just knowing that I'm coming from it from a place of. Um. You know, wanting, wanting to understand, right. And wanting to, to be curious about, um, just making sure that, that I can be as supportive to those people as I can. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:22:42:

So for our listeners who are considering starting a business, what do they need to know? About being a successful entrepreneur. 

Speaker 1 – 00:22:52:

So a couple of things I'll add commentary to that thoughtful question. Number one, you have to really be committed to a work ethic that is second to none because you set the pace, the tempo for your organization. That doesn't mean you don't take PTO. That doesn't mean you don't connect with your well-being. But it does mean that you're not clocking in nine to five. It means that you have to be willing to be that catalyst for change and motivation and enthusiasm for an entire organization. Number one. The second thing that is most important as an entrepreneur is how do you get those first 10 clients? There's plenty of people that have great ideas. Phenomenal. But if you can't turn that concept into something that someone's willing to pay cash for, right? So it's really creativity entrepreneurs have, then they have a concept or an idea, but how do you commercialize that idea? And when you can get 10 clients, what typically happens as an entrepreneur is you can look through those 10 clients and there's years worth of learning in those first 10 clients for your business. Then you can take that learning and now figure out what parts of your products and services need to be retooled, what's working, what's not working. And then you try to take it from 10 clients to 100 clients. And that's exactly what we did at the diversity movement. When we started the business before we even thought it was going to be a full-time thing, it was really a side hustle for many of us. But when we got our first 10 clients, we started to learn what was missing in the marketplace. And then we transitioned those 10 clients to that fast growth that led us to over a hundred clients and growth. 

Amber – 00:24:35:

Yeah, I love what you talk about collaboration. And just, I remember just in my own career, how important it was. When I was tackling a new task to have somebody who I could call on and say, just a phone call, Hey, I'm not sure how to do this thing. Can you point me in the right direction or give me some feedback? I mean, it could be a story I've written or a project that I'm working on. I mean, just having somebody, and it doesn't even, and the thing is, is it doesn't even have to be a person. In your organization, I mean, having that trusted. Confidant or mentor. Who knows you professionally can be a huge help. I just know that. That there have been times when I've called people and said, hey, there's this opportunity at work. Should I apply for this job? And. And. You know, to a one, it was, yes, Amber, you could do that. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:25:44:

Right. You know, Amber, one of the things Dawn says a lot is you need to curate a personal board of advisors. And I love that. It's so true. And, you know, borrowing courage is okay. Like you need that friend or that mentor that's going to say, you know, yes, you can do that. You've got the skills for that. You can learn these one or two things and do that. So for every professional. Cult and every person, I think. You know, it doesn't matter what you do. You need to have a personal board of advisors that provides you insights and courage and support and encouragement and knowledge, no matter what it is that you're doing or want to accomplish. I think that's important for every person. 

Amber – 00:26:38:

You're so right. You're so right. So we are almost at the end of my questions. And I love this question because it goes back to what you were talking about. You mentioned in passing that ability to show emotion in the workplace. And. You know, I'm a woman of a certain age, and when I was coming up, I mean, if you got upset or angry or started to cry, you excused yourself and went to the bathroom to get a hold of yourself. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:27:14:

Get yourself together. Right. That's right.

Amber – 00:27:18:

Yeah. That's exactly. And so, in fact, we talk a lot about authenticity, but for so long, authenticity was seen equals. Unprofessionalism, being unprofessional. And not appropriate leadership behavior. But. Lately, we've been seeing a shift. And I know in your leadership style, you are a very authentic leader. And I so appreciate that. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:27:55:

Leslie. Why do you think your site and the stories of the people that are sharing? Resonate so well with so many people. 

Leslie – 00:28:06:

I think it's because we're real. I think in all of the crap. That's out there. At the end of the day, all of us want to be the best mom, wife, sister, friend, spouse, partner, whatever we can be. And that's what the site does. That's what the book does. I don't want drama. I'm not a drama. I'm just not a fan. There's so much drama on the internet. And we've pushed really hard to be that middle space. I think that's because of the reporter in me, one of my very close friends and the editor of the site also used to be a reporter. And so we just, we want to tell the story no matter who you are. We don't want division. And so for me, like it's important that faith was in there, but I don't, I don't ever want it to be a, a faith site that says you're doing this right or wrong. I just want to be a place where people are comfortable sharing their story about faith if they want to. And if not, no big deal. I mean, that's a big thing for us too, for the book. We wanted it to be, and it is in all places. Whether you know God or you're not sure He's for you. We just want it to be a book for everyone. And that's a really hard space to be in in 2023, almost 2024, really hard. But we fought for that. And I think it's showing that that's what the world wants. We just want community. We just want to share our stories, reach out to someone else and help somebody along the way. I think that's the good stuff in life. And it got lost a little bit the last few years. And I hope the world realizes that that needs to come back a little bit more.

Speaker 2 - 00:29:48:

I would say that the experience that black actresses are having on set. Are reflective of the experiences that black women are having in their salon spaces, right? So depending on what salon chair you get into, you could have a varied experience, even like with detangling your hair, right? Some people will detangle it dry. Some people will detangle it wet. So it's this feeling of like, and then when you go in there, the way that they touch your hair can be like a mixture of disgust and discomfort. So we're getting that onset as well. The difference is that we're going in front of millions of people. And so in Hollywood, you know, there are systemic issues just like in the real world when it comes to hair onset and textured hair onset. And so for me, you know, I'm a black woman with typical black hair, type four hair, but I have this atypical career that requires the use of my hair. And so when I got my first big job NCIS: New Orleans, it was a series. Regular job. And a series regular is different from a guest star, a co-star because you're there. Like that's your house, right? And so my assumption was. Well, now that I'm in the house, of course, they're going to have like the right stuff for my hair. Of course, they're going to want to work with me. So the first year that I came on the show, it was the end of season one. I was a guest star. I got promoted. And in season two, I said, hey, I want to wear more hair texture because we're in New Orleans and I can't keep flat ironing my hair. And so the question became how much texture. And so they put me in these extensions, the wet and wavy look, right? Type three, type two. And as a result of those extensions and the lack of care that was going into, you know, maintaining my hair underneath this hair, I ended an episode with traction alopecia. So then it was like, okay, now we need to figure out how, what we can use in our hair to give us this look. And so I came back in season two and I'm back in the wig, but I'm leaving the perimeter of my hair out. And letting them flat iron it. And so in the middle of season three, I'm losing the hair on my hairline. So then by the time we get to the hiatus between three and four, I had an inch and a half of hair left around my perimeter. And it was a moment for me of like, okay, I have less hair for them to work with than I had previously. And this is just an ongoing issue. So I think I have to leave this job. So that's how like, you know, Juilliard Grad, Tony Nominee, I've done this, done that. And on the show, everything got narrowed to this one thing. No one cared that I was doing my own stunts. You know, like there were so many other things that I was bringing to the show that I thought would matter. And at the end of the day, even down to what the fans were writing in was about my hair. So for me, you know, my experience was egregious, but it wasn't singular. Like there are still Black actresses that are like, I have to do my own hair at work. You know, I. I get up three hours before everybody and I do my own hair because the hair department won't touch my hair. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:33:39:

Yeah. And they don't do it well, right? So we're not providing on set stylists that have experience caring for black hair. And that should be part of what we do when we're, you know, wanting these multicultural shows, right? And we're trying to incorporate more culturally diverse people. We need to provide. What they need, right? And whether that's in you know, on TV, in corporations, et cetera, we've got to have that foundation to make sure that we're caring for culturally diverse people. Will you share a transformational life moment? And I think that may be when your mom passed away, but I want to open that up for you. How does that moment, tell us about what that moment is and how does it inform or guide your life? 

Anselm – 00:34:35:

So that was a transformational moment, you know, very much for me because overnight my whole world kind of fell apart, right? You know. Being being the baby of your family and being very close to your mom. And then, you know. She passes. And I really wasn't... Man in a sense 19. So how did it transform my life? I think, one, I had to realize that I needed that nurturing and I needed to find people who would still provide me with that mothering that I needed before I could move to the next level. The other thing that it did, it really kind of helped cement in my mind the things that are important and the things that are not. And I think that's a constant struggle. You know, as we think about even the jobs that we do, we've got to be, we have to be mindful of not just why we do the jobs. We don't just do the jobs because they pay us for living. We do the jobs because we have internal drivers and we are driven to a purpose. And that purpose is about other people. You know, it doesn't matter what you do. You know, it's about other people. The last thing that I would say is that. As people, it doesn't matter what your goals are. I think every person has to be self-aware. And part of transformation is going through, when you go through big, significant emotional events. Is to learn a lot more about who you are and how those events trigger the ecosystems that you're a part of and how that helps you or how does it take away from your ability to interact positively with other people. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:36:31:

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that, Anselm. 

Speaker 3 – 00:36:38:

For generations, medical mistrust has plagued our health care and clinical trial system, you know, from, and I'll say beyond Tuskegee, the syphilis study, to striking disparities, and even currently with pain treatment for patients today. So this, you know, disparity, and due to, I'll say, cultural unconscious unbias and All these. External barriers that have really plagued and really had an, you know, a place with making. Some patients mistrustful of the healthcare system. I actually had the opportunity of dealing with this firsthand with my father when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer. He was really concerned that his medical team would not treat him with the respect that he deserved. And, you know, due to his negative experiences of growing up in the midst of some of these medical negative experiences, it was, you know, really hard to kind of change his mind and explain to him, you know, the rules that were in place so that he wouldn't be fearful and really being fearful of how he would be treated primarily because of the color of his skin. And so instead of brushing off of the concerns, you know, we really do have to address the issues of mistrust and trust. And so I think that's really important to be able to talk to patients and educate and have conversations and listen to patients as they're talking about why, you know, they feel the way that they feel about mistrust. And knowing that trust is at the root of someone's decision to participate or not in a clinical trial, action needs to be taken to build relationships within communities and working with trusted voices to ensure that patients have the right information to make the right decisions for their medical journey, especially in communities where clinical trial participation is low. Research has shown that, you know, having a research or even a medical team that resembles, reflects the patients, those patients have a better experience. And even from a trust standpoint are. Feel more trustworthy of their team to make the right decisions for them. So we do have to do a better job with diversifying the clinical trial workforce and with the hopes of helping to address some of those issues with trust. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:39:37:

So many of us are looking to transform our own lives in some way or ourselves in some way. What is some advice that you have for how we begin our own self-transformation journey? 

Speaker 4 – 00:39:50:

One of the things that I would say is start with self-compassion rather than judgment, right? Because when you're going through the self-transformation journey, it's recognizing that it's not always going to be easy. And so learning to be kind to yourself over judging yourself is going to get you so much further than being judgmental and harsh and self-critical. So I would say self-compassion is a huge part of step number one, but then it is giving yourself grace to go into it with not just the self-compassion, but with steady steps, recognizing that self-transformation, it happens over time. It's not going to be overnight. And so even small steps that we can take will compound to become the larger change that we want. And I think oftentimes when people start on that self-transformation journey, they try to like jump so far in, right? Like they're trying to try to take like 10 steps instead of just that first step. And so that's what I would say is really important is just take your time with it and go step at a time. Give yourself grace as you do it. Kindness over judgment. And that's, that'll, it'll get you there. It'll absolutely get you there. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:40:52:

That's great advice. When we think about self-compassion, because we're always our worst critics, right? We're always harder on ourselves than, than other people ever could be. What are some of the things maybe that we say to ourselves or recite or what's the mantra or the affirmation to begin that self-compassion that you talk about? 

Speaker 4 – 00:41:14:

I generally will tell people start either envision your best friend or a family member or just go into third person in order to start that self-compassion journey. Because people really, you're right, people struggle. It's so much easier to be compassionate to others and not to ourselves. So sometimes we have to build that muscle. We've got to give ourselves that distance. So if we have to pretend we're talking to our best friend or family member, that's one way. I really do encourage people to just go into third person, talk to yourself. Like I'll say comedy. You know, that was a challenging situation. That was really difficult. Wow, like, and you showed up and you still, you're still here. You're okay. What did we learn? Right. And so that starts building that muscle that builds that muscle to be kinder rather than going right into that, that judge mindset. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:41:85:

I love that. And you know, Kamini, I, I like that you kind of talk it out loud because when we stay in our heads, that's where all the negative talk happens. Right. But when you say, you know, if I were to say, Jackie, you know, this did not work out the way that we wanted it to, right. You're, you're a little easier on yourself naturally, because that's the natural way that you speak. Whereas you're so much more self-critical in your head. 

Speaker 4 – 00:42:27:

And Jackie, the other thing I will offer up with that too is shame. Breeds and will grow and thrive in silence and when it's not witnessed. And so the other part and the other reason why we want to speak it out loud is because we can be our own witness. And when we hear what we're saying, if there is shame lurking in the background, we're witnessing it and it no longer can continue to thrive because we're naming it out loud. We're witnessing it and we can actually work through it like, wow, that's actually not true. What I just said about myself there, that's not true. 

Jackie Ferguson - 00:43:00:

Wow. Thank you for that. I think that's, that's so important and, you know, such great tips to just get started with just practicing a little bit of self-kindness. Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you love this show, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, YouTube, and TikTok. Or subscribe to our newsletter at beyondthecheckbox.com. This show is part of the Living Corporate Network, sponsored by the Diversity Movement, and edited and produced by EarFluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.