Equity & Inclusion Beyond the Scoreboard w/ Lindsay LaBennett

Jackie - 00:00:10:

Welcome to Season 10 of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox, proudly presented by The Diversity Movement and part of the Living Corporate Network. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, business leader, and human rights advocate. In this podcast, we're diving deep into the stories of trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share insights and professional success and personal development. Thank you for being part of this amazing community. Enjoy the show. You're listening to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. Today, my guest is Lindsay LaBennett, Vice President of Inclusion and Impact at Wasserman. Lindsay, welcome to the show.

Lindsay - 00:00:54:

Hi, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be speaking with you.

Jackie - 00:00:57:

I am too. Lindsay, let's jump in with your journey to getting involved with Wasserman. What drew you to Wasserman and then what drew you to the sports and entertainment industry initially?

Lindsay - 00:01:10:

That is a great question. Initially, I was not at all looking at sports and entertainment. I'm a writer. I love to write. I was a PR major, but my first internship was at NASCAR. And NASCAR gave me that exposure to the sports world. I was like, wow, this is really exciting. I didn't even realize that the jobs that were within sports existed. I started at NASCAR. I was there. I moved to Florida for a couple of years. Then I got to work with Octagon. Octagon is an agency. That gave me my first taste of agency life. I knew then that I was like, I'm an agency girl. I want to work for an agency. I love working with different clients. I love the varied, roles that you could play. And then I found Wasserman. I've been with Wasserman for, it'll be 14 years in July. I know I consider myself an OG around here, to be honest. My role at Wasserman has also changed so much since I started. The journey was really driven around being around good people who are doing good work and work that was exciting. That has always been part of my career. I'm very thankful for that. That's how I got to Wasserman.

Jackie - 00:02:22:

Love it. Now, Lindsay, tell us a little bit about your day-to-day and what the Vice President of Inclusion and Impact does.

Lindsay - 00:02:29:

Yes, that is a great question because every day is a different day. So my role is very unique in that I serve both our company and our employees, but I also serve our clients. So I would say some days I'm hyper-focused on consulting a client on some cultural issue, or other days could be like yesterday, I did a whole DE&I forum session training on cultural appropriation versus appreciation, especially around the Asian community. So, so much of my role involves educating on a daily basis, exposing people to different lived experiences and cultures. I also manage all of our partnerships. So whether that is with organizations like America Needs You or Diverse Representation, I'm trying to ensure that Wasserman, we are strategic about our partnerships, but we're also sharing our POV and demonstrating that we have thought leadership on these issues in DE&I. But I also work really closely with all of our agents, whether they're sports agents or music agents, because they represent athletes and artists, and they want to have a perspective on these issues. They have a POV they want to put out there, whether it's on their social media or a press conference after a game. So I would say my day-to-day really is based on education, constantly, of myself and others, to be honest. And then also just consulting, general consulting, making sure people feel comfortable about the marketing decisions that they're making, whether it is from the lens of an athlete or from the lens of an AT&T or a brand who wants to show up at Coachella. Because a lot of the clients that we work with, they play within culture, and they want to make the right decisions. They want to understand when they should speak up versus when they shouldn't. So a lot of my work is around advising in those moments.

Jackie - 00:04:21:

Were there pivotal moments or experiences that shaped your career path and getting to where you are in the amazing work that you're doing at Wasserman?

Lindsay - 00:04:29:

Yes, there was. It was the fall of 2016, and it was Week four of the NFL Season when Colin Kaepernick took a knee. That completely shifted my career. Up until then, I was on the NFL side of the business. I was supporting brand partners that were official partners of the NFL. And obviously, when Colin Kaepernick was protesting, it was the moment. It was the talk that everyone was planning around it. And I realized at the time I was the only Black woman on my team, one of the only women that was in this room when we were discussing the issue. And I realized that there was a gap of education of what Colin was communicating with his action versus what the industry was understanding. And I realized in that moment that as much as I loved the traditional consulting on the sports side of the house. I felt a pull, a real pull to say, I want to be part of a solution on this conversation, because this impacts me as a Black woman. This impacts me as someone in sports who understands the importance of athletes being able to leverage their platform and not wanting to silence them. So that was a pivotal moment for me where I knew that I needed to use all of the experience that I had. I needed to use the understanding of sport that I had and shift it to serve my community people who look like me, other marginalized people. Because at the end of the day, sports is a microcosm of the world. So if there are things that are happening in sport, it's happening in society in general. So I knew then after that happened that I was not going to be able to approach my job with the same passion unless it was aligned with something around activism or education or just addressing inequities that people like Colin and myself face every day.

Jackie - 00:06:22:

That's amazing. What advice would you give to young professionals, especially culturally diverse women looking to break into sports management?

Lindsay - 00:06:32:

Yes. I have so many little nuggets of wisdom I would love to drop on the next generation of women, especially women of color in this space. The first one would be, you really have to hone your skills and understand the game you're playing. When your work product is ironclad and no one can poke holes in it, that is going to allow you to show up authentically, confidently. It's going to put you in rooms that for others, it's a little easier for them to get to. I would also love to give them the advice of just knowing that they have the juice. As a Black woman, as a woman of color, our lived experiences matter. Who we are naturally adds value to whatever space that we occupy. And sometimes, as women and women of color, when we enter into rooms and we are the only one, we can start to doubt ourselves. I would love for this next generation to nip that in the bud immediately. As soon as that negative self-talk starts to enter the brain, I want to give them thought blockers to say, no, your experience matters. Your opinion matters. Who you are, where you went to school, how you were raised, how you wear your hair, all of that matters. It means something. It means so much that it drives trends. I sit so confidently in my Black woman-ness, if you will, because I know that I'm driving what's in. If more young professionals can just have that confidence, I think they'll navigate the beginning of their careers with a little bit more force and a little bit more assuredness. So yeah, if they would just remember that we have the juice, I think that's the right foot to start on.

Jackie - 00:08:12:

I love it. Lindsay, that is amazing. And for those listening, please rewind that and listen to that one more time because that's so true. One, you've got to be good at your job. So that's number one. And the second thing is you have to just understand that you are enough.

Lindsay - 00:08:33:

Right.

Jackie - 00:08:33:

And that's something that so many of us struggle with. Because of outside influences, experiences in the workplace. It's not just internal, right? It's those experiences that we've had that have told us we're not enough that we then take with us. And so I love that you said that. I love the way that you said it. And that's so important for these young folks and some of us older folks to hear and respond to. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Lindsay - 00:09:05:

Yes. 100%.

Jackie - 00:09:08:

Lindsay, Wasserman is known for its significant influence in sports and entertainment. What specific projects or initiatives are you currently excited about?

Lindsay - 00:09:17:

Yes, that is a great question and something I love to talk about because when you're in DE&I, I love to talk about the work and the actual commitments and the things we're doing versus talking about the issues because we all know what the issues are. But a couple of projects that I'm really excited about, one, the relationships we're building with select HBCUs. We partner really closely with Tennessee State University and Howard University specifically, because they have music business programs. And we are really mindful of the hurdles for people to enter our industry, right? So sports, music, entertainment. There's not always a clear path to finding your way in the industry. And we want to address that gap of understanding with meaningful partnerships. And I think HBCUs coming after 2020, a lot felt like they were the solution to a lot of corporations' lack of relationship with the Black community. They were going to HBCUs saying, hey, we want your students, we want to invest. And HBCUs have to one, be ready for that, but two, understand the value that they already have versus what they need. So for us, our relationships with HBCUs has solely been centered on bringing our expertise on campus and making commitments as it relates to jobs, right? Because the college experience is, it's so rich, but it is meant to get you employment at the end of the day. So, we've been working with business programs where we're able to bring in our music agents and really talk to them about what it's like working in this world. Because when you're in college, you're learning from textbooks, and they are helpful, but it's so much more impactful and powerful when you're actually learning from people who are in the job today that you want to have. So bringing that expertise on HBCU campuses means so much. It means so much to me personally, because I went to an HBCU, and I know the richness. I know the quality. I know the culture that is birthed there and how they are so deserving of opportunities that sometimes they are skipped over. So being part of that is meaningful to me a different level. And another thing I'm really excited about with Wasserman is we recently acquired CSM and their depth in the world major. And with that acquisition, we're really able to continue this work and take this effort global. They have an entire Middle East practice. So I'm really just excited to take a lot of the momentum that we've been doing here in the US and in the UK and other international offices that we're making an impact, but really influencing the industry on a global level. That feels like we're living in 2030 already. You know what I mean? Like we're looking far ahead where the world is going. So those would be probably the two elements right now or partnerships or programs, I should say, that really excite me because they feel future focused.

Jackie - 00:12:08:

Lindsay, how does Wasserman approach diversity, equity, and inclusion within the company and then with its external partnerships? You talked about that a little bit. Can you get into a little more detail with us there?

Lindsay - 00:12:19:

Yes. So from Wasserman's perspective, one is we have to approach DE&I from a place of reality. We have to approach it from a place of accountability, right? Because I think a lot of organizations, especially post-2020, a little bit post after Trayvon Martin and really the beginning of the Black Lives Matter movement, made commitments. They made statements and said, we have to do right by this community. We have to figure it out. And then the work got hard. And then they were like, wait, actually, this is too much for us. We need to scale back. And I'm proud, at least to say, our approach to that has been, we're just in the beginning, right? This is the long game. Because change in the DE&I space, there are small wins that have to be appreciated along the way. And progress is progress. It may not be at the speed that we want, but we need to stay focused instead of feeling like, all right, it's been a couple of years. We don't see the change. Let's pivot. No, it's been a couple of years, but we're fighting against decades and systems that have existed. So for us, our approach is really centered on building credibility. We need to do that within the communities that we're trying to attract. But we also have to have credibility in our industry to be able to say, hey, Wasserman, we have a perspective on this. But if you don't have credibility, who wants to hear from you on anything? We also are really focused on becoming trusted advisors. And when we say that, we mean we want a client to come to us and say, look, I really want to speak out on what's happening in Gaza and Israel. I don't know how. I don't know if I should. I'm so worried if I say something, I'm going to alienate my audience. We want them to come to us and say, I trust that the team at Wasserman will advise me from a place of understanding, reality. They're going to give me the lay of the land. They're going to give me data and help me arrive to a decision that makes me feel comfortable about the work that I'm doing. And then lastly, I would say we really appreciate intersectionality here. I think we're very much so aware that the layers of identity have to be addressed and considered. Like it's about the and, like I am a woman and a person of color, right? I cannot be approached as a singular entity because I'm experiencing world based on all these filters. Whether you have a disability or you're from a different, you know, you speak a different language. All of these elements make up who we are. And we can't just put people into a box and say, yep, we have a program for black people. No, but what about the Black people that are from different economic situations or the Black people that didn't go to college or the Black people that are affluent, right? All of those layers have to be appreciated. And I feel like at Wasserman, we do a great job of understanding those unique aspects and have no problem and no fear addressing them. I'm pretty sure you talk to organizations all the time about there's a lot of fear around DE&I work. You're scared to misinform or you're scared to offend, but I'm scared of inaction, right? What scares me is when people stall out and they no longer make a move. I would rather make a move and say, oh, we learned from that, but let's pivot and keep going versus I'm even too scared to address this. So let's just not talk about it. So, yeah.

Jackie - 00:15:31:

That's so great, Lindsay. And, you know, you're right. A lot of organizations and a lot of leaders are afraid. Do I say something? Do I not say something? What do I say? What's the right timing? Did I wait too long? Is it too early? Right. And having an organization like Wasserman to say, okay, let's dig into this. And give you the best data to then make a decision that's right for you is so important because so many of us don't have that partner that we can rely on to have that conversation. So I love that. I love that. Social media has become a powerful tool for activism and advocacy. How do you see its role in the sports industry, especially concerning social justice issues?

Lindsay - 00:16:21:

This is a great question. And it's so timely because social media, there's such a love-hate relationship overall, regardless if you're in sports or healthcare education. But I'm convinced that there's more good that can come from social media than bad. Especially when it comes to activism and advocacy for sports. And when I say for sports, I mean for teams, for leagues, for players. There are social media allows for an opportunity for them to engage in a way that they never could before. And a great example of this is there was a baseball team. And it was, I think, coming off the Hills of one of the shootings that happened here in the US. And they dedicated their entire social media feed during the game. To displaying information about gun safety, about gun laws. Instead of using that time to tweet real live game updates and replays, they were like, no, we know we have a captive audience. They're looking to us to share. Who just scored this home run, but instead we're going to remind them about the gun laws in their state. And I think that's an example of a sports entity understanding the role that they can play and how they can advocate for certain issues that are, maybe, extremely important to them as an organization. But you do that to create a conversation, right? Or to drive a conversation. I also think about a lot of athletes that were behind some of the hashtags that really created movements, if you will, whether it's a lot of the WNBA athletes constantly tweeting. The hashtags say her name in response to the death of Breonna Taylor. Not even just athletes, but teams and venues and leagues. They have so much influence. And now people go to social media to connect with them. That is a great vehicle for them to yield that influence in the right direction when it comes to just being aware of issues. It can be very polarizing at times, I think social media is something that you really have to curate and make sure that you are getting the content that is healthy for you to get. But is also accurate and real. And I think there's a real opportunity for sports to lean in. And say, we want to be those trusted advisors for our larger community, right? If we are the Baltimore Ravens, we want to be a voice in addressing the poverty issues in Baltimore, right? This is our house, too. So sports using social media can be a phenomenal tool to reach audiences and basically draw a line in the sand and say, no, we aren't going to be silent on this issue. If you want to know where we stand, go follow us on Twitter. You're going to know based on our content, our videos, who we follow, who we celebrate. So it is a real opportunity if it's used in the right way, I would say. Because social media, if you don't use it the right way, it can get dangerous relatively quickly.

Jackie - 00:19:13:

Absolutely. Lindsay, can you share some examples of athletes represented by Wasserman that have used their platforms for social change? And what are some of the challenges and drawbacks that you find with them doing that as well?

Lindsay - 00:19:29:

Yes. And I'm kind of biased because I'm at Wasserman, but I truly believe our athletes are doing it the best. And we represent over 3,000 athletes across the globe. But to give you a couple of examples, one, we represent WNBA athlete Nneka Ogwumike. Nneka has not only been doing phenomenal things for the league as a player. But she has been doing and standing up and speaking out and showing up for Black women, for Black men. She's been using her platform to prioritize messaging around equity and just showing up. That's just so important for athletes to say. You know, we had a program at Howard University. Nneka said, I want to come. I want to talk to the students. People who want to study sports, hear it from my perspective. You know, we also represent a swimmer by the name of Simone Manuel. She's doing great things in addressing mental health, right? And how it really is important. It's not a cliche term anymore. It is something we all have to pay attention to. We also represent Megan Rapinoe, Alex Morgan, and they were so important for the fight for equal pay for women athletes on the soccer side of the house. So we have athletes that are, one, they are savvy enough to know what they don't know. But they also know that there are issues that they have an opportunity to speak on and raise awareness. But with that, to your point comes significant pushback, right? Like there is judgment. There is the whole notion of can you just shut up and play basketball, right? Like people, people often don't want their sports to be mixed with political issues. But unfortunately, issues are politicized, right? They're not always political issues. I also think a challenge is just staying informed. Athletes live busy lives, right? Their bread and butter is their competition. So having to stay up on what's going on in culture, whether it's the language changes around gender identity, down to how do you talk about a war that has religious undertones and political undertones? And you only have surface level information. Yet your followers on social media are like, we want to know where you stand on this. You're not saying anything. So I think a big challenge for our athletes who want to be part of social change, is just keeping up with the right information. And also being confident to say, you know what? I'm not smart enough to talk about this. I will not lend anything positive to the conversation. Something that we consult our athletes on is we ask them a question. Do you have something to say? Or do you just want to say something? Because those are two very different things. If you just want to say something for the sake of being part of the conversation, let's step back and address your strategy here, right? Because, do we need to hear from you on this subject matter? Do you have something that's going to be a solution? If you don't, we have to start getting comfortable in sitting in our silence and doing our individual work to learn. But if you actually have something to say, let's help you do that in a really meaningful way. Let's help you identify the people on the ground that are doing the work. And amplify their message. And just leverage your following. So for our athletes, it's a lot of just lack of awareness, that is a big challenge that they have to fight against. Because to be honest, the world from an information perspective, it's a tricky place. Like if you read one article, you have to figure out, wait, who produced this article? Where is it posted? Is it valid? Is it biased? And that right there challenges athletes to say, all right, I can't speak out about this. I'm not comfortable. I don't want to be canceled. I don't need any one of my comments speaking negatively. So I think that's a huge challenge is just making sure that they do stay aware, that they stay educated, and that they stay confident. And even if that confidence means silence.

Jackie - 00:23:20:

Yeah. I love that. And one of the things you said, Lindsay, I'm going to repeat just because it's so important. The issues are politicized. They're not political issues. So if we think about human rights, that's a community issue. That's a societal issue. We politicize these things so that we don't really have to deal with them. And so, and so I love that you said that and it's so important. And so I wanted to say it again. So thank you for sharing that.

Lindsay - 00:23:53:

Thank you for doubling down on it.

Jackie - 00:23:55:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Lindsay, let's talk about the noticeable disparity in college sports where there's a significant number of black athletes that are represented, but DEI programs are being cut back. They're lacking. What are your thoughts on that disparity?

Lindsay - 00:24:15:

So look, Ms. Jackie, I have a very controversial opinion.

Jackie - 00:24:19:

Let's hear it.

Lindsay - 00:24:21:

I am not one to shy away from how I authentically feel. I wish some of the Black athletes would just come on home to HBCUs. Come to where your difference is celebrated. Come to where you're nurtured. You're taught about your history. You're taught about your people in a way that isn't challenged, right? Like the truth of your people isn't questioned. Because it's one thing to be accepted in a space. It's another thing to be welcomed. And major institutions would love to accept you, right? Come to my school. Play on my fields, right? But are you welcomed? Are you received? Are you seen as not just a woman, but a Black woman? And is that cultural difference appreciated? So I'm such a strong supporter of HBCUs, again, because I went, my grandparents went, many people in my circle went to HBCUs. And that experience is so rich and everlasting as far as who you are in this world. And I wish that more Black athletes would take a look at HBCUs and say, wait a minute, that's a place where not only can I grow from an athletic perspective, but from a human perspective, from a community perspective. So I think when some of these Black students start to realize how certain institutions will love them based on what they can do for the institution, as in get us to the championship, encourage boosters to give, versus these institutions really seeing your value as a person of color or even seeing the value of the progress of your people, right? Like that is a big piece of it is it's not just about me getting us to the NCAA tournament. It's about this institution that I represent seeing the value in my culture and my people. And I think when they start to realize that their parents themselves, they'll start to make different decisions and say, yes, these larger institutions could probably get me more eyeballs. But long term, are they going to really enrich me as a person of color?

Jackie - 00:26:26:

Yeah. I don't know.

Lindsay - 00:26:28:

So that may be controversial, but I'm always going to ride for HBCUs because it's an amazing experience.

Jackie - 00:26:33:

I love that. And it's something that we haven't said out loud, but that we're all seeing. These universities are cutting back DEI, but they're still recruiting these Black athletes to boost their program and their win rates. And so there needs to be a conversation on the equity of the value that they're giving and the value that they're getting as individuals.

Lindsay - 00:27:02:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:27:03:

And I, so I love that.

Lindsay - 00:27:04:

Yeah. You cannot use our, our cultural prowess without some sort of cultural contribution. If you're not contributing to my community, how can you then turn around and want to use my community for your financial gain or for help you recruit other students? There has to be a transaction of goods here. And as far as I'm concerned, a lot of phenomenally talented Black people who are also good at sports will go to these universities and they're giving away that, that cultural gold mine to people who aren't culturally pouring back into us. So sooner or later, I want those things to start clicking and people make different decisions about, you know, where they're going to spend four years of their life.

Jackie - 00:27:48:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Lindsay, how can we encourage more institutions to adopt comprehensive DEI programs that support athletes holistically when what we're seeing are the repeal of those DEI programs? What is your advice for us there?

Lindsay - 00:28:07:

So I have two things. And the first one, I think you hinted at it earlier when you mentioned data. Because numbers don't lie. And what I do know about institutions and companies is that they love data. They love insights. They trust it, right? They trust data. So part of what we have to do is constantly remind institutions of what the data is and what it says, right? So whether it's something as simple as 36% of companies are likely to be more prosperous and productive when they have diverse staff, right? That's a data point that cannot be argued. It is just received and then you have to change your behavior, right? We also know that the future is going to be Black. It's going to be Brown. It's going to be bilingual. It's going to be accepting of difference. And if I'm a university and I don't start to address these changes and I don't evolve with the audience that I'm looking to attract, which is students. I'm going to become antiquated. And that's the last thing that universities want is to look at as being antiquated. John Hope Bryant, I believe that's his name. I was listening to a podcast. And he said something that I wrote it down because it just struck me to my core. He said, DE&I is the research and development for the future economy. And when he said that, I was like, hmm, if a company looked at DE&I as research and development for the future economy, there would be zero hesitation on whether or not they should invest in it, whether or not they should put resources and time behind it, because it is the future economy. And I honestly think, and this is a frustrating part about DE&I work, is that it's like we're constantly trying to make the business case. When the business case has been made two times over, we should be past the business case at this point. We shouldn't have to make the points and the reminders of the benefits of a diverse staff, but we still have to. So the first thing is data, data, data, data, reminding them of the data. The second thing is we have to start investigating the rejection. Of the concept of DE&I. Like, what is the pushback? Where is it coming from? Is it founded based on anything that is sound, right? In my opinion, this pushback to DE&I or the cancelization of DE&I is really around ignorance. It's around the fear of losing power. It's around not wanting their privileges to be addressed. And unfortunately, I feel like it's almost this acceptance of anti-intellectualism, right? We've just accepted that we don't want to learn anymore. We've accepted that we no longer want to understand gender. We've accepted that, no, I'm tired of hearing about what Black people need. We have accepted sitting in a place of ignorance because we're tired of being challenged. And again, the long work with DE&I is that path forward you have to keep going. We have to keep challenging. I have to keep reminding you of the data. I have to keep making you uncomfortable because that's where the change is going to come. So institutions, they have to start looking at the data, keep looking at the data, and they have to start getting to the root of why they're canceling these problems and start having that discussion.

Jackie - 00:31:21:

Wow. Absolutely. Thank you for that, Lindsay. That's... That's profound. And it's so important for us to think about from wherever we sit, whether that's corporation or sports and entertainment or education, what you said there is so important for all of us to consider in the work that we're doing.

Lindsay - 00:31:44:

Agreed.

Jackie - 00:31:45:

Looking forward, what future trends, Lindsay, do you see emerging in the intersection of sports, social justice, and digital media?

Lindsay - 00:31:54:

Yes. So I see a couple of trends. I think the main one that sticks out to me is that athletes are really using their digital footprint as their media, right? Long gone are the days of a athlete calling up ESPN. And be like, I have an announcement. They don't need to do that anymore. They don't need ESPN. They have their own following, right? And usually it's larger than ESPN. So I think athletes are going to start using social media as a bullhorn for themselves, as not just an athlete, but as a brand, right? Because athletes are brands. They're more than just basketball players, right? They are investors. They are people in culture. They're driving fashion. They're into music. So I think that when it comes to social justice, they're going to start using their platforms to connect dots, right? Whether it's telling people, hey, don't follow me if you want to learn about what's going on with police brutality. Follow this individual. They're actually doing the work. So I think there will be a little bit more strategy around their social media presence when it comes to social justice. I also think that, and I know that, not even think. I know that athletes want more consultation on this because the demand is there. Athletes know that I cannot get away with anymore having no opinion on anything, right? We're in a new, this generation demands it, but we're in a new world where people have constant access to you because of social media. So you have an opportunity to engage. And that means you need someone to help you navigate. So I do think a trend is going to be athletes and more than just athletes, leagues and teams looking for that cultural consultation. We need to get this right. We want people to keep coming to our games. We want people to keep investing in our product. We don't want to alienate them. We don't want to disrupt how they feel about us. So consult us from a position of cultural awareness. So I think that is going to be a major trend moving forward only because this next generation is demanding it.

Jackie - 00:33:59:

It's so interesting that you're saying that because we need to be thinking about the evolution of sports and entertainment. So how do you envision the role of sports management evolving in the next five to 10 years, particularly around social impact?

Lindsay - 00:34:19:

Yes, I love this question because I think a lot of people believe sports is just entertainment. Like sports is so much more than that. Sports, we're not exempt from playing a major role in a lot of social issues and cultural issues. Sports makes a difference in society. And when we start to look at sports that way, then we hold sports more accountable for playing a role, right? So when I think about social impact, I think of sustainability. I think of our role in society. I think of athletes that have been the drivers behind social change. I think of childhood obesity, right, and sport being part of that conversation. I think of sport being innovators of how we do things, even down to technology, right? So sport is not exempt. Sport is part of the conversation. I also think that sport is one of the only mainstays in entertainment that people enjoy live, right? If you think about, like, when I was growing up, we were watching the same TV shows as everyone else because that was your option on a Friday night. You were watching TGIF. The kids now, you can watch whatever movie, whatever TV show you want to watch whenever you want to watch it. But sports? When that NCAA championship game was on with South Carolina, you had to be in your seat watching. You weren't going to stream it later. So sports has this interesting opportunity to use that live moment to continue to inform, to continue to engage, to continue to bring light of issues, and also just be a visual representation of the change that's needed. Whether that is more women reporting on all sports or whether it's specifically talking about some of the very disrespectful mascots that still exist that are harmful for the indigenous community. These are opportunities and issues that impact sports that reach people who are never going to engage with that subject matter unless it's brought up in sports. It's almost like the opposite of shutting up and play. It's like play and talk about this at the same time. Because we need people to be aware. And sport has an amazing opportunity to make an impact because of the influence. If you look at the majority of the top followers on Instagram or the top profiles, I will say, with the most followers, the majority of them are sports figures. So you have the world listening. What are you going to say? And sports has this amazing opportunity to say something meaningful and impactful and challenging. That is going to get us to seeing change.

Jackie - 00:37:03:

That's so true. And you know, Lindsay, the thing that I was thinking when you were saying that is sports is an equalizer, right? It doesn't matter what your socioeconomic demographic is. It doesn't matter your race, doesn't matter your religion, everyone's sitting in the seats rooting for that team. And in a society that's becoming more and more polarized. That to me is one of the only things that brings us together in the way that our society should be.

Lindsay - 00:37:35:

Yes, 100%. I feel the same way about sports because you walk into a sports bar. I'm from Baltimore area. I'm a Ravens fan. You walk into a Baltimore sports bar and the Ravens are on, you're going to see black people. You're going to see white people. You're going to see Hispanics. You're going to see blue collar, white collar. You're going to see people in trades, people in corporate. You're going to see families. You're going to see single folks. You're going to see people who weren't born here. You're going to see it all. And everyone is unified in that moment because they need this one thing to happen so they can have a good day. If we can leverage that moment to bring everyone together, the impact that sports can have is tremendous. And that's on a global level too, you know? So yeah, that's another reason why I love this industry is the ability to, for change to happen. It's just, yeah, it feels good.

Jackie - 00:38:28:

Absolutely. Lindsay, on a more personal note, what motivates you to do your work every day?

Lindsay - 00:38:37:

That is a great question because this is very challenging work. The small wins. That is what keeps me motivated. I am a realist. I recognize the amount of change that one can create. So when I have small wins and where I see small progress, that keeps me going. And that could be something as small as a coworker sending me an article that they read and said, you know what, you talked about this the other day about cultural appropriation. And I'm going to bring this to my client to make sure that when we're doing, we're making casting decisions that we are casting from a community that we were trying to represent. That's a very small example that feels like, you know what, the work that I'm doing here is changing the mind or the behavior of someone where the impact of that is the greater good of another community. Like, that is a small win. That's what keeps me going. I will also say what sustains me in the work, which I think anyone who's in a change agent role, whether you're in DE&I or you're part of a nonprofit and you're trying to shift people's perception on something, it's focusing on those small steps and being intentional about saying, I'm only going to achieve this right now. And I'm okay with that. Because when you're in DE&I, there are lofty goals, right? That people are like, you're supposed to be changing our industry, right? Like we were at 20% Black people last year. We need to be at 30% next year. I'm like, wait a minute. Let's manage our expectations about what we're able to achieve. Because there is no worse feeling than setting a goal that you know you're not going to reach along the way, right? Versus like, let's set the right goal in the upfront. So when we reach it, we feel good about the progress that we're being made. And that progress may be two percentage points, not 15. Because I think that's what trips people up. I find joy daily when I see people changing their behaviors. That's really all I need to keep going because I know that the seeds are being sown, right? They're being watered on a daily with education. But the fruit that will come from those trees, we may not see that until decades from now. So I have to find solace in that I'm in seed sowing season for some people. And in 10 years from now, when they're like, you know what? I've completely changed my recruiting strategy because of that conversation we had a decade ago. I get it now. You just kind of have to wait for that fruit to bear. But progress is progress. The small wins, that's what's going to keep me going.

Jackie - 00:41:21:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Lindsay, who have been some of your biggest inspirations or mentors throughout your career?

Lindsay - 00:41:29:

I would say from a mentor perspective, my mentorship started at home. And I am so grateful and thankful because my mother was an engineer. She was an executive leader at a major defense company. And some of those principles I absorbed very early just from watching how she moved about the world. And whether that is hard work, whether that is accountability, whether that is, Lindsay, if you say you're going to do something, you better do it. And if you can't do it, better communicate why. You need to be a stand-up individual. You need to be respectful. You need to read the room. All of these themes, she invested in me just by naturally just being who she was. So when it comes to navigating certain issues that I experienced in corporate America, she's my mentor because she did it, right? She retired in her early 50s. So she knows the blueprint. But I also look for mentorship outside of my industry. I am also thankful because I am surrounded with a group of Black and Brown women that are in healthcare and education and engineering and creative. And we are all Black women operating in very white spaces, very different industries. But we face the same mental challenges, the same hurdles. And we put a mirror up to each other often to remind ourselves, like, nope, keep going. Nope, you're not in the wrong. Nope, try again. You know? Don't get out of your head, Lindsay, because that's a dangerous place to be sometimes. So my mentorship really comes from the women in my life who have either raised me or who are pouring into me now. And just reminding me that like hard things are hard. You said you wanted to do this job. It's not always going to be an easy road, but that's why you have me to call when it's not easy. So you just don't quit. But I would just like my mother and my grandmother as well. You know, she's 91. She has a building named after her at A&T. They were raised on a farm. So they have that hard work mentality. That I feel like really set the foundation for me to understand who I am. So when it is time for me to get mentorship. I can do a combination of observing what they're telling me and absorbing what I need and being still in who I am. So the women in my life, definitely from a mentorship perspective. And from inspirations, I would say there's two women. One is Jaia Thomas. She is a lawyer and she created Diverse Representation. It is an organization that specifically addresses the lack of representation for Black and Brown people and women in sport, whether that's on the representation side, the attorney side, publicists. And as a response to 2020, I love when people are like, I see a problem and I'm actually going to create a business to solve that problem. That's what she did. And she has been boots on the ground, like building this up. We are a proud partner of hers. I'm a proud supporter of her as an individual because I know how hard it is to just build your own business, period, let alone a business that's built on equity and making change. So Jaia is an inspiration to me. And the other young lady I will mention, her name is Shaina Wiel. She created an organization by the name of Minorities in Sports. Because she realized when you're working in sports as a Black woman, you need community. You need to come to events and see other people that look like you. You need to walk into a room and instantly feel connection. And she created this organization, obviously for jobs and networking, right? But also for community. And when you have community, you feel safe. You feel seen. You feel like you can keep going. And every time there's a major sporting event, whether it's WNBA All-Star or NFL Super Bowl. Both of those two ladies are going to have events. They're going to have moments where you can say, come home, come be with community, come get reinforced of who you are, what your value proposition is as a Black person in this world, and then go back out there and prosper. So I'm really inspired by both of those women because they make the personal sacrifice to say, I want to build community and I'm in it for the long game. So those are the work loves of my life who I watch all the time.

Jackie - 00:45:49:

I love that. I love that. Lindsay, as we wrap up, and this has been such a great conversation, where can listeners find you online and stay updated with the work that you're doing at Wasserman? And then what do you want to share with our listeners as we close?

Lindsay - 00:46:05:

I love a good final thought. Well, first you can find me @lindsaysaidso that is lindsaysaidso on all social media platforms. I'm also encouraging everyone, please go follow Wasserman. A lot of the work that I do, a lot of the content that I'm responsible for, the programs are all on Wasserman. So please go follow Wasserman on all of our channels. We're at teamwass.com from a website perspective. And my last thought for the audience is really more of a reminder. And it's kind of reiterating what I said earlier is that we have to lean away from anti-intellectualism. We have to lean away from people being like, oh, that's woke. No, no, no. It's aware, right? It's informed. We have to find the courage to challenge. We have to find the courage to call things BS when they're BS. And we have to find the courage to keep going. There are systems in place that want us to quit this work. There are forces that want us to get exhausted and say, just forget it. I'm not going to bring this up again. I'm not going to call out this the fact that there's no woman at this table and we're talking about an issue that's impacting women. We cannot get tired. We have to push forward. But part of that is leaning away from that negative energy that's going to pull us from solutions and leaning into community and other people that are doing the work. So it's not easy, but hard things are supposed to be hard. So..

Jackie - 00:47:44:

That's right.

Lindsay - 00:47:44:

We just have to keep going at the end of the day.

Jackie - 00:47:48:

Lindsay, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. So many amazing sound bites that I'm going to be referring to again and again. Thank you for being here.

Lindsay - 00:47:59:

Thank you for having me. It was so lovely to talk to you.

Jackie - 00:48:06:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you loved this show, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, YouTube, and TikTok, or subscribe to our newsletter at beyondthecheckbox.com. This show is part of the Living Corporate Network, sponsored by The Diversity Movement, and edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.