Leading with Empathy: Josh Haymond’s Journey in Business and Community Impact

Jackie - 00:00:10:

You're listening to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast brought to you by The Diversity Movement. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, speaker, and human rights advocate. On this show, I'm talking to trailblazers, and I'm talking to people who are in the community game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share their inspiring stories and insights on business inclusion and personal development. Thank you for downloading this episode. I am truly grateful for you. Enjoy the show. You're listening to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox  podcast. Today, my guest is Josh Haymond, Managing Partner at Vaco. Josh, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited about our conversation. 

Josh - 00:00:56:

Likewise, Jackie. Thank you for having me. And this for me is great to be on. You've had a lot of amazing guests and love the content. So thank you for inviting me on.

Jackie - 00:01:09:

Of course, of course. Josh, let's begin by learning more about Vaco and your role as managing partner.

Josh - 00:01:16:

So Vaco is a global recruiting, staffing, and consulting firm, private equity-backed, and corporate headquarters are in Brentwood TN, Tennessee, although my role is really focused on the triangle market. So I joined the firm a little over 10 years ago now, really focused on a sales capacity to just grow our presence, grow our practice. Thankful that at the time when I joined in 2013, it was already a really good business. And so I got to learn the ropes of the recruiting and staffing business with a brand that was already established and had a great boutique brand to itself in the triangle. My role now, just as I've continued to progress with the firm, moved into leadership of overall Raleigh, NC Triangle responsibilities several years ago, while still, you know, serving as our lead business developer out there, you know, trying to drum up business and still working directly with clients on serving their needs. So it is very much a player coach role, which I love because to me through and through is I love client service. I love the leadership stuff, too. But for me, just also getting a chance to work directly with our clients and help them solve their challenges is something that I still get really energized about. So it's been a great mix of responsibilities where I get to get to wear a lot of different hats. As we moved into a new office recently, you know, I had the facilities hacked. I had a little bit of architect hat on and a few other hats as well. So it keeps everything interesting.

Jackie - 00:02:56:

I love that, Josh. And with as busy as you are at Vaco, you're also the founder and president of an organization called Beyond Basketball. Can you share the mission of that organization and tell us why it's important to you? Absolutely.

Josh - 00:03:12:

We founded Beyond Basketball in 2020 as a nonprofit organization with the very simple mission of preparing youth for when the ball stops bouncing and built the program around providing mentorship opportunities and programming throughout the year for youth in the community that was really focused on trying to spark the interests outside of the game of basketball, but still connecting through the game of basketball and, Many of our mentors played the game when they were younger and they're now doing something different. And so connecting youth to leaders in the community that, you know, that once held that same love and still do hold that same love to the game of basketball. But knowing that the ball does stop bouncing for us all, we have to be really mindful about making sure that we're educating, you know, the youth that are looking up to us as adults who, you know, we're high performing players, that there is life outside of the game of basketball. And it's important to try to find that spark, you know, whether it be mental health, financial literacy, leadership, STEM related topics, just trying to find ways that we can open the door, remove a barrier, create access to learning and opportunities and relationships that, again, these youth might not otherwise. Yeah. I think for me personally, you know, when we founded the organization in 2020, I wanted to apply myself more and in a different way. I had served on several nonprofit boards where it was more in an administrative capacity. And I think for me, um, the back office stuff is always, has come very natural to me, but at the same time, you know, I look back to my time when I coached basketball at Millbrook High School, which was my alma mater in the area. And, and just being very hands-on with, with children and youth to me is very rewarding. And so I knew there were a lot of people that wanted to give back and wanted to be a part of younger people's lives, but they couldn't necessarily be a full-time basketball coach or they didn't necessarily have the ability to leave corporate America to work in nonprofit full-time. And so trying to create opportunities where we could build this mentor network of people who wanted to help and wanted to pass along all that they've learned while knowing that we all still share the same love of the game of basketball ultimately. And so it's been a really rewarding, humbling, several year process that we've been on. I think initially I've had many grandiose plans of what the organization became. And ultimately, now three and a half years in, I think a lot of our work now is working through and with other organizations in our community that are and have been doing amazing things already in some of those areas that I mentioned. And so the organization is quite nimble in terms of very low overhead, but that enables us to really input the dollars that we're bringing in and what I wanted to put into the community. Direct to the people that need it most. So a great example, when the pandemic started, obviously many students and families were struggling more with access to a lot of different areas. But one of the things that we saw was that many of these students didn't have the right hardware to actually do virtual learning. So during the pandemic, one of the big initiatives that we did was distribute over a thousand Chromebooks over the course of the last couple of years so that the students in the triangle had something that they owned that was theirs. And we know ownership is incredibly important. And so that was one of our big early programs. It was really focused on just removing a barrier and access point to the youth in the area.

Jackie - 00:07:33:

Josh, that's so amazing. What an incredible organization and such good work that you're doing. You're doing lots of incredible things professionally and in the community, but we haven't yet got into your backstory. Will you walk us down the lane of your life a little bit and share some of your experiences? 

Josh - 00:07:52:

Sure, absolutely. And some of this stuff is not always easy to talk through, but I think it's important and important. A lot of what, you know, made me who I am and a lot of my outlook on people and leadership and just the world in general. So I grew up in Raleigh, NC. My mom, you know, raised me by herself. My mom and dad got divorced when I was six months old. And frankly, you know, you could argue they shouldn't have gotten married at all. It wasn't a healthy relationship. So my mom raised me in Raleigh, NC. There were many years, you know, during my childhood where I didn't see my father at all, a lot of struggles with substance abuse, depression. He was in and out of prison for quite some time with his struggles. So my mom raised me and she came from a military family, poor Jewish father, poor Italian mother. And so a lot of, you know, her upbringing within a military family that did not have a lot with a lot of siblings, you know, ended up just really kind of pushing a high degree of work ethic into me from a young age. Separately, you know, I was a victim of sexual abuse very early on in grade school. And I think that for me definitely created a moment early in my life where I shut down to a lot of people that were not my family. Um, and so for me, it was a little bit of a hardened youth early on. And, you know, looking back to it, you know, things that, you know, we wouldn't think about doing with our kids these days, you know, but but I fought wanting any type of after school help or relationships with babysitters or whomever. So picture me as a six year old, you know, coming home from school by there till eight o'clock by myself, because my mom had to work two jobs to make ends meet for us. And so we didn't have it great. But at the same time, I learned through my mom's father, my grandfather, who was present and was there for me as a father figure that's you know, we still had it a lot better than many people around us. And so as I grew up, you know, elementary school through middle school, through high school, you know, was always in the public school system here. I always had, you know, friends from all different walks of life and backgrounds. And I saw from a young age that, you know, though I might not have had a super traditional upbringing, It is still in my heart. I did feel like I had it better than a lot of other people around me. And so I always had, I think, a caring heart, you know, and my mother was luckily very kind. You know, very understanding of my father's demons and did not, you know, did not push me to hate him or not like him. In fact, she was very understanding and wanted to try to build bridges where she could. And so I saw how, you know, she would even go out of her way to help my dad and his side of the family that, that, that were struggling more than us. And so I think just that mentality of, um, helping other people and knowing that we might not know what everyone is going through in their personal lives, but it's important that we just be open to the fact that you don't always need to know what someone's going through to know that we need to treat people with care and treat people with respect and empathy. So I played basketball locally in high school at Millbrook and then played in college at Elon. I met my wife at Elon, but Elon was a culture shock for me in that come from the public school system. And then all of a sudden you're going to a very small school with not a lot of diversity. And I did not feel at home. So my wife and I ended up transferring together to UNC Wilmington. She had a lot of family in Wilmington. And we ended up, you know, finishing up school there and moving back to Raleigh, NC afterward, where I started my career in accounting. And so about five years in accounting before I joined Vaco in 2013. And we had, we had our first son about seven and a half years ago and our second son about five and a half years ago. So we, we live in the area with two amazing young boys that we're, we're very thankful to to be a part of their lives.

Jackie - 00:12:39:

Josh, that's amazing. Thank you for the courage to share. You know, it's so important that we as individuals, as successful leaders, share our experiences because it allows others to be able to open up and share their experiences and get help and know that you can overcome that, right? You can move through that. And with it always being a part of your backstory and potentially one of the things that motivates you to show kindness and be patient with people, which are amazing attributes for every individual, but especially for leaders. I just want to commend you and thank you for having the courage to share that with our audience. So thank you. Thank you so much. Josh, you know, on your site, joshhaymond.com, the header reads, lead with empathy. And I think we are starting to be able to understand what that means for you. But can you share with us what leading with empathy means?

Josh - 00:13:44:

Absolutely. I think for me, you know, trying to enter every interaction, every conversation. Whether it's with a team member, whether it's with a client, whether it's with someone I'm meeting for the first time, I think it's just really important that we enter into all those interactions that we have hundreds per day, right, in some cases, and know that we don't always know what someone's history looks like. We don't know what their mourning looked like, let alone their history. But the idea that you know, people are, uh, going through what they're going through. And we all have our different challenges that we're working through at a given point in time, I think is just... So paramount to how we connect with one another. And so it's very easy for, you know, if someone is defensive when you're giving them feedback that you think is constructive, it's very easy to shut down, right? And get frustrated in that moment because that person doesn't take feedback well, when in reality, we've got to take a step back and realize, you know, our job, you know, our side hustles, our community interests, our hobbies, these are all very small pieces of who we are as people in totality. And so, My leadership style as it relates to managing my team, but also how I hope they manage their teams as well, is just really focused on knowing that, yes, we have to have a successful business. But first and foremost, before there can be any level of business success, focus. We have to care for one another. We have to care for the people we're interacting with on a daily basis and understand that we all come from different experiences and we're going through different things as we speak. So we got to ask questions and we've got to listen and we've got to understand that everyone has a different motivation for why they're here doing what they're doing and just being curious about how people tick and how and why they are a certain way or come across a certain way, I think is something for me that I look at my job and I think in a different world, I could have been or would have been a psychologist just in terms of how interested I am and how people operate and tick and just knowing that I'm coming from it from a place of wanting to understand, right? And wanting to be. Curious about just making sure that I can be as supportive to those people as I can.

Jackie - 00:16:41:

I love that. And curiosity is so important, Josh, because so often what we do as a society is we find points of difference and then we disconnect instead of looking to lean into those points of difference and learn. And if we did that more, I think we would just have a better world. And certainly, there are so many ways that we're the same, but we focus as a society on those differences rather than on those points of connection. And I love that you shared that. The humanity should come first. So as a society, we're always looking for those points that were different and it leads to disconnection versus looking for the ways that we're the same and the ways that we operate the same, think the same, that have the same goals, right? And family and points of connection. So that's what we should be leaning into. And I love that leading with empathy is important to you, Josh.

Josh - 00:17:47:

Absolutely.

Jackie - 00:17:48:

Um, Yeah, clearly, you know, you and Vaco, but I want to dig into your heart for diversity, equity, and inclusion. From your perspective, why does DEI matter to our society?

Josh - 00:18:07:

Well, I think that's a great question. And I'll start by saying that I feel like I'm on a, a lifelong journey. So I definitely do not believe that I'm, um, a thought leader in the space of DEI. And I think we all should have a little bit of that feeling as we go through life, as we continue to learn and just grow, because I'll tell you that there's been, numerous occasions and You know, my journey through this that that where I wasn't perfect in the way that I verbalized where my heart might have been. And so just continuing to to learn to learn through all those experiences and work with great mentors and coaches in the space and. You know, you and Don and team included just as resources for us to get better. And I think for me, you know, diversity and DEI, it... It's really difficult to to verbalize the you know, the impact of, because for a lot of people, it's out of sight, out of mind. And so I think for me, you know, this idea that all of a sudden an organization or a community or a person is going to wake up one morning and the light bulb goes off, I think is probably the wrong way to think about, you know, diversity. I think to me, it has to be a... A process and it has to be a process that you know, each person who's going through that process has to be just open-minded about beforehand. And I think, um, There's a lot of people that are not open-minded, as we've seen, and there's others who are open-minded and need to come through that learning journey. And so for me, I mean, a great example of the importance of diversity. I remember when I was in accounting to start my career, And even when I got to Vaco in 2013 and we were recruiting for companies that were seeking to hire accounting and finance, IT and HR professionals, you know, we would always say things like, well, there are not a lot of black accountants or there are not a lot of. 

Jackie - 00:20:41:

Right. 

Josh - 00:20:41:

Black people in IT or whatever the case may be. And That to me is where we stopped. We stopped the conversation there in a lot of those cases versus really thinking through deliberately what we have to do as a community or organization or group of organizations to position what we're doing in a way that is going to drive a different outcome. And so I think for me, you know, years and years of my life, we say, I would say, you know, things are broken. You would see that things are broken, but the call to action of how can we fix some of these things that are broken is an incredibly daunting challenge. And it's not a challenge that gets fixed quickly. I mean, these are systemic issues within a lot of areas of our society that don't fix themselves overnight and don't fix themselves because, you know, one person wants them to change. But the more that we can collectively come together with people who agree with us, but also people who might disagree with us and challenge the why behind why there might be differing opinions on diversity, equity, and inclusion. The hope is that it creates more conversations around, you know, learning for those people who might be the detractors of why these things are important, you know, for society to be able to build. A culture that is high performing, we need people who come from different experiences and walks of life and different beliefs because all of those different beliefs and experiences and upbringings and challenges and achievements are what together are gonna make us much stronger than they would otherwise be with hiring people who all look exactly like me or all think exactly like I think. And so challenging ourselves to be comfortable around people that come from something different than what we come from, I think is the important first step that starts the journey. And so, DEI to me is incredibly important because, Vaco and myself, we're on the forefront of building all of the major companies, organizations in the market. And we see what companies are doing this successfully and what companies are not. And we get at the tip of the spear, if you will, when a client's telling us what they need out of a talent, we're in the spot where we can... Challenge that. You know, okay, does this really need the designation? Does it really need an MBA from a top 10 school? Some of these areas that, you know, we're seeing every day as it relates to companies hiring, you know, we're in the spot where we can educate them that, do you really need that as you think through trying to build a diverse culture and organization?

Jackie - 00:24:08:

Josh, you're so right on so many levels there. As we're thinking about diversifying our talent pipeline, what happens with a lot of organizations is You know, they're doing a rinse and repeat kind of search in those same places, you know, from the same schools, and they're not looking outside of those areas, outside of their natural network. To say, you know what, maybe I'm not reaching far enough to find the diverse talent that I need to bring in. And so it's so important that you not use that as a stopping point but as a challenge to say, okay, Here's where I am based on these same rinse and repeat ideas or ways that I go about recruiting, but let me reach beyond. And that's so important. And we know the benefits of DEI consists of greater innovation, greater productivity for organizations, which of course increases your profitability. And so those diverse ideas and thoughts and ways to problem solve at a table can make a total difference within an organization. And so many of our young folks, Gen Z especially, are looking for organizations that prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion, and they don't want to work for organizations that don't align with their personal values. And so, so important what you said about how we're diversifying our talent pipeline, because we need that diverse talent in order to continue to grow and innovate and change as our society is changing. Josh, when we think about creating inclusive cultures, right? We need that in order to be ready to receive that diverse talent, right? So a lot of times organizations start in the wrong direction, right? They start by recruiting diverse talent and then they don't have the foundation of a culture of inclusion that's ready for them. And so then they move out faster than that organization wants. How do we create those inclusive cultures to be ready to receive the diverse talent that we're now, right, intentionally recruiting for?

Josh - 00:26:28:

Yeah, I think that's a great next question, you know, because I think we've all heard of the stories where organizations make a diverse hire and that diverse hire feels like a box was checked, right? They're the token diversity hire. And that cannot be more detrimental for the organization. They're not going to retain that person. That person's probably going to share with others that, you know, it was not what this was told to me to be. So it's very difficult then to build off of that. That first or second hire, if the environment when that first and second hire is not welcoming and inclusive to that individual, right? And so not only do our hiring practices need to be inclusive, but further, once we've made the hire, now those hires need to feel like they are an equally important part of the team as anybody else top to bottom within the organization. And so I think during the course of the last several years, we have really focused on how we can educate our current employee base on an ongoing, consistent basis too, looped into our management meetings, looped into our weekly communications we're sending out to the group. Not just the importance of DEI, but also the importance the education around the stark reality of many of the issues our society and our workforce faces surrounding DEI related topics and initiatives. And so I think for us, we realized that everybody was on a different playing field in terms of where their knowledge base was around the time of George Floyd and since. And so it became very important that we got everybody to a baseline of understanding of, These are the facts, right? And these facts cannot be disputed. Right. And sure. On top of facts, there will always be opinion, but let's at least get everybody on, you know, the same playing field in terms of their understanding of the system and their understanding of the impact that that system has on everything else that happens after it. I think for us, educating not just all the employee base, but then doing deeper dives with our leadership team to really be introspective about where we are and have been successful and where we are falling short and being willing to look in the mirror to say, Hey, yeah, we could be better here and making sure that then we're putting our money and our time where our mouth is. And so to your point, You talk about where to look, right? Similarly, if I'm choosing what, a hundred events that our team is gonna be on campus for this year, where are we choosing to spend that time? Where are we choosing to spend the resources? Where do we know that employers might not be going. Where do we know that career service centers are stretched thin, or even there is no career service centers, what have you, so that we know that not only are we educating our team on, the challenges and the reality, but also then dovetailing that into what our community impact looks like, what our community budget then invests in. And where we're spending our time from a volunteerism standpoint. And I think, you know, the more that we've educated our employee base, our leadership team on what is good, better, best. The more that when you add a diverse hire and then another and then another and they see how we communicate internally to our employee base, how we're serious about DEI. Again, with our dollars and with our time and what we're willing to step out of production to focus on. We're all a lot more equipped from the top down to make people feel like their viewpoints, their backgrounds, their beliefs are. They're important and they matter just as much as my beliefs do. And so I think when you're hiring and those people you're hiring see very early on in their process of working with you, what you said is actually occurring in terms of what that internal culture looks like, that's when you get the retention. And that's when you're starting to get the compounding effect of, okay, word starts getting out that this organization or that organization is getting this right. And all of a sudden it's a safe place. And once it's a safe place, that's when you're starting to see really, really things move in an incredibly, I don't want to say fast, but things start going. And again, people talk. And so we have to know that if it's a safe place for one, that one has relationships with hundreds of others, of other people. And so that's when you're really going to get the economies of scale.

Jackie - 00:31:58:

Josh, you're so right about that. And, you know, one of the things that I realized over time is, you know, as a Gen Xer, and I say this a lot, when I went into the workplace, you know, you go to an interview, you would get an offer, you would take the job, you would, you know, work with your head down until that first promotion came. But now these prospective employees are interviewing those companies as much as those companies are interviewing them. They're talking to employees that work there. They're looking at their digital assets. They're really doing a lot of research. And you're 100% right. Those employees are talking to people and sharing that that's a great place to work or it's not a great place to work. And so you want your brand to be reflective of the types of talent that you want to bring in. And so that's so important. Thanks for sharing that. So Josh, above your community advocacy, you have a personal and familial reason for being an advocate for DEI. Would you share that with us?

Josh - 00:33:02:

Yes, absolutely. So, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, my father not being a big part of my life, especially early on in life. And, um, you know, one moment that just, it did, it did impact me quite a bit. Um, growing up, you know, I found out when My father got out of prison in fifth grade. I remember getting a call from him and I had not spoken to him. Probably three or four years at that time. And I remember the call. I remember, you know, sitting on my mom's bed. I remember everything about that night. I remember, you know, his tone, his sorrow, his pain, everything. But my father told me in that moment that I had a sister and I did not know I had a sister at that point in time. So here I am, you know, 11 years old, finding out that I've got a sibling. And pretty soon after, you know, a couple months after I went, I went to South Carolina, where he lives in rural South Carolina, and was able to meet my sister. And I, I really struggled with the notion that my biracial sister was something that should be kept secret, something that was kept secret. So at the time I was 11 and she was, you know, in kindergarten. So she was five, five and a half. And, you know, come to find out I met her. When I'm in second grade and she's a baby and didn't know that was my sister. And at the time I remember, This really was just kind of an eye-opening moment. I remember my dad, after I met her in that second grade timeframe, I remember my dad making some type of offhanded thing racial remark Again, me not knowing this is my sister, me thinking this is my dad's work friend, something, you know, to the effect of, of, you know, the way she looked and, and, almost seeing if I would engage in it, right? Seeing if I jumped into his commentary. And my dad was somebody who every friend that I met of his growing up was a black person. So I knew in my heart, this is not a racist person. He's married to a black woman to this day, Ashley's mom. But He, in his mind, something about what was going on in his mind expected me as a white kid with no feeling of racism or what have you, that I wouldn't accept him or I wouldn't accept Ashley as, as my sister. And so, you know, in fifth grade, when I'm learning this, I'm just, oh, my gosh, like it really is kind of interesting to look back on. But South Carolina, I hate to say, is like it's a lot further behind, you know, where we are in the triangle, even around, you know, around race. And I look back to that time frame and my father, I think he pulled away from the family because of his expectation of how it was viewed, more so than anybody in his family rejecting her as a part of the family, which was also very difficult for me to see as I got older and was getting older and, you know, just saw how he internalized and pushed others away. And so back to my mom, my mom wanted to do Christmas for Ashley every year, right? Knew that they couldn't financially do it. So when we would go to South Carolina, my mom would, you know, she would do a whole Christmas for Ashley. And I just remember, you know, my mom being so excited about this because she's just so giving and caring and my dad being standoffish about when we could come by and do it, things of that nature. It's just really eye-opening. I did find out also later in life when I was in college that I had a brother that's also biracial that was born two years to the day after me, November 29th. And so once again, in that case, you know, my father was not a part of Marcus's life whatsoever. But once again, I've got this half sibling I'm learning about later in life and In Marcus's case, I don't know if anyone else knew until later in life or if it just was unspoken or what have you. But this idea that race created secrets within my family, you know, growing up is definitely a part of our story. And seeing how, you know, she's come up and her life has gone. And being very close to her brother, so not even my half brother, but she had a brother as well. Seeing how he was, um, you know, wrongfully convicted of very serious things in South Carolina. Went through the legal system. And how that changed their family is just, um, It's all very real. It's all very real. It's all very close to me. That is a big part of just what opened my eyes to the fact that, you know, these issues are real because I saw it impacting our family directly.

Jackie - 00:39:11:

Josh, thanks for sharing that. Do you have relationships with your half-brother and half-sister today?

Josh - 00:39:17:

My half-sister, Ashley, she has gone through a lot. She has also gone through a change. So Ashley is Jackson. I see Jackson once a year, maybe. Marcus, probably once every couple of years. We talk a lot. I mean, I guess that's a good thing about social media is that you're in close proximity, but it's not the same as spending time. And I could always be better about that, but you always ask yourself how much of that responsibility is on me. I always look in the mirror. I'm like, how much more should I, could I be doing to build relationships with people? And I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Where I wish that they could separate from some of what they're living in. But that's difficult when you've got parents and family around you that are really, really struggling. You as a younger and child of those parents, they both want to help. They both want to help. And so somewhat unfortunate that they haven't been able to separate from the situations, but they haven't separated from the situations because their heart keeps them there. So I also can't fault them for that.

Jackie - 00:41:12:

Josh, thanks for sharing that. Tell us a little about your family and how all of these stories impact your ability to be a dad and a husband and provide some perspective there.

Josh - 00:41:29:

So I think I knew that I did not want to be the husband or dad that, that I saw modeled in my father. Um, again, I was very thankful that my grandfather was, um, a very good role model in how to treat your wife and how to treat your kids and how to care for your family and prioritize the family. For me, you know, we can only have one priority by definition. Priority means one. And so for me, I, There were certainly times in my life when I was entering into my professional journey where, as Christie and I were still very young, but knew we would be together forever types, where I would be lying if I say I didn't prioritize my career at some points early on while we were just building ourselves and, you know, learning to be adults and all those things. But I think for me, when I started to feel like I was, and we were collectively as parents, not parents yet, but ready to bring other others into this world and, and hopefully that we could, you know, have children and, we started focusing on one another a lot more. And I think the, this idea that we could work so, so, so, so hard to then have, means to then support a family, I think I've come a long way in how I view that. We obviously got to have, you know, money and resources to have a family. But it wasn't until we focus more on one another and, you know, our mental health and me and Christie's relationship to where we even physically could have children. And so it was at that moment where we, focus on one another where Christie, then all of a sudden, after, you know, several years of no cycle, just miraculously, you know, with no medication, just miraculously can, you know, all of a sudden get pregnant the next month after we just really focused on us. And so, you know, I knew when we had children that, family was going to be my priority. I had to learn the hard way that family needed to be the priority even before children are a part of that. And so for me, You know, my work is my work, but my priority and why I live my life is to, you know, make an impact in my kids' lives and hopefully instill some of the values without the hard lessons I had to experience growing up, but still make sure that they understand how to view these things and how to view the world and how to just care for people. And all those things that we've talked about during this conversation. And so, you know, for us, my wife and I, you know, we, We are, I would say, a little less normal in terms of how many things we sign the kids up for, how many things we send the kids off to. I think for me, it is how I can maximize my time with them. And so if someone told me that I could quadruple my pay, but that would mean that I've got to travel, even 30% call it, I'm not doing it. For me, the importance of being able to tuck my kids in every single night and read them a book and be there when they wake up in the morning is of utmost importance to me. And so I have passed up countless opportunities to do something outside of what I'm doing here. And I've simply said, we can promote someone ahead of me, but I'm doing what I'm doing, right? So in the spirit of up and out, I guess it's out for it stay in the same role for me, because for me, I feel very thankful that I can craft my day, my weeks, really with the focus that I know I need to be successful at what I do. I know I need to make money. But If I can't be what I need to be outside of work, then what am I? I'm not sure. But I don't want to answer that question. I don't want to know. And so I think my team that I work with at Vaco all sees that. They all understand that. I've got boundaries. I work very hard. I work more than a 40-hour proverbial work week. But the way it pieces together is so important because it's I don't feel like I'm missing out on any of those important moments of raising my children and being there for my wife when she needs me most.

Jackie - 00:46:53:

I love that. You know, one of the things that I thought was really interesting on your site was a blog that was titled Priority is Meant to be Singular. And, you know, in a world that prioritizes busyness and overcommitted calendars and bragging about how many things you're trying to get to, having a singular priority and a singular focus is not something that is part of our culture. How do we determine what our singular priority should be, Josh?

Josh - 00:47:27:

And to me, answering that question is as simple as, If you lost your job, could you still be happy? If you lost your family, could you still be happy? And I know for me, if I had the people that I love the most close by, you know, the, I'll trust my resourcefulness to be able to find new work, find a new career path, find a new passion or hobby, whatever the case may be. I'll trust my ability to do that more than my ability to look back when I'm older and feel like I wasn't as present. I wasn't as active. I wasn't as involved as I could have been or should have been. I don't want to feel shame. I don't want to feel guilty when, when I look back at what I've accomplished. I don't want it to be a running list of professional achievements. And then you look to the other side of Josh Haymond and everything else is broken. You know, I feel like that for me is the way that I've answered the question is, um, is really check myself there. And, and, and I'd be lying if I said, I, I, felt that way for, you know, forever. I mean, I think for me, it, Christie's checked me on several occasions where it maybe hasn't always felt like that to her, that it's been the priority. And in those moments where someone in your life puts you back on your heels to say, it doesn't feel like that to us. You know, we've had those moments. And in those moments, you can get defensive or you can understand that, she and the family needed more out of me than I was giving at that point in time. And so I think for me, those moments have been probably the most crushing moments that I've had in my heart, you know, and it's how we react and respond to those moments I think are our most important.

Jackie - 00:49:41:

Thank you, Josh. That's great advice in determining what really matters to us. Absolutely. Josh, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for sharing so many amazing insights on business, but also your personal story. What's the message that you want to leave our listeners with today?

Josh - 00:50:03:

Yeah, I think for me, I'm going to assume that most of the listeners of this show are either already excelling in DEI or interested in exploring, you know, more content around. But I think knows that We have to be comfortable on a consistent basis checking ourselves, our beliefs, our egos, all that we think we know, about a topic, about a person, what have you. People who you know, have not maybe invested time in, and energy into building diverse and inclusive homes, organizations, communities, Jackie, they probably look at a lot of guests on your podcast and think that there's been a destination or a bar that's been reached. But I think it's important that we take a step back from that because in reality, we we still are learning and we still say things in a way that we shouldn't sometimes. And we still have those moments where we're not as empathetic to someone who's struggling as we should have been. And so I think it's just a lifelong mentality more so than some type of barometer that says, you're doing really good at DEI or you're very inclusive of an organization or what have you, it just ends up being something that needs to become the fabric of how we think versus how, something that feels like a grade because I feel like With DEI, if people are too hard on DEI, where they are currently, It is very easy to close off and shut off from the continuous learning and the process. And so we need to make sure that although people who maybe aren't where they could be on some of these things are you know, still staying positive to the fact that, If you're hungry, if you're interested, if you're curious, and if you're open-minded, You know, this is a really rewarding mentality and mindset to bring into life. And everyone around you is going to be better for it, right? Your family, your friends, your colleagues, that snowball effect that you'll see from the people around you getting better and more interested as they see you are is incredible. Really incredible. So stay the path, stay the journey, don't strive for perfection, but strive for being better than you were yesterday.

Jackie - 00:53:15:

Great advice, Josh. Thank you so much. How can listeners learn more about your work and get in touch with you?

Josh - 00:53:21:

So I joke with some of my friends who are like the Instagram influencers. I'm not an Instagram influencer. But LinkedIn, on the other hand, is probably where I'm most active and try to pump out some content on LinkedIn, just things that we're seeing not only in the market, but best practices within leadership and team development and team building and culture. I also do write from time to time at joshhaymond.com. I'd love to get myself more consistent there, but it ends up taking a backseat sometimes. But definitely on LinkedIn, reach out to me, connect with me, drop me a line. I would love to meet anyone and everyone who has a perspective to share because I'm a firm believer that we can all learn something from one another.

Jackie - 00:54:17:

Josh, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really appreciate your time.

Josh - 00:54:21:

Absolutely Jackie, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate our partnership and friendship and look forward to continuing to work with you in the future.

Jackie - 00:54:38:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox . If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become a part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, and TikTok. This show is proudly part of the Living Corporate Network and was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.