Leading with Inclusive Language for Success: Insights from Dara Sanderson, CEO of Dictionary.com

Jackie - 00:00:10:

You're listening to the Diversity Beyond the Checkbox podcast. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, certified Diversity Executive, Writer, human rights advocate, and Co-founder of the Diversity Movement. On this podcast, I'm talking to trailblazers game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share their inspiring stories, lessons learned, and insights on business inclusion, and personal development. Welcome to the Diversity Beyond the Checkbox podcast. My guest today is Dara Sanderson. Dara is a Seasoned Senior Executive with 20 years of experience in technology, entertainment, and adtech, and the CEO of Dictionary.com. Her areas of expertise include Cross Platform Application and Product Development, Process Improvement Interactive and Immersive Media, New and Emerging Media, Digital Media, Strategy and Marketing, CRM Analytics, Strategic Partnerships and Alliances, and Team Building Leadership and Mentorship. Wow. Dara, thank you so much for being here.

Dara - 00:01:21:

Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Boy, you make it sound like I do a whole lot.

Jackie - 00:01:25:

And we're going to talk about your career journey in a little bit, but we'll have a little more explanation as to why you've got so many areas of expertise.

Dara - 00:01:35:

Sure.

Jackei - 00:01:36:

But Dar, will you tell us just a little about yourself? Your background, your identity, your family, whatever you'd like to share.

Dara - 00:01:43:

Absolutely. So I am a born and raised New Yorker. I'll start there. I'm originally from Queens, New York, but I've moved around quite a bit in my journey in life. I currently reside in New Jersey with my daughter Maya, who is ten, and I am a black woman CEO. And I have been working in this industry for, as you said, over 20 years and doing a lot of different things, which will cover some of them, but I'm just happy to be here.

Jackei - 00:02:12:

Well, Dara, thank you so much. I'm so excited to get to talk to you over this hour. In a previous conversation, you and I traveled an interesting road on how you got to where you are at dictionary.com. Will you share a little bit of that story and the professional experiences that you've had?

Dara - 00:02:31:

Absolutely. So it's been a winding road, for me. If you had asked me as a 2019 year old would I be in this space that I'm in, I would never have guessed this in a million years. So early on, I started my career as an engineer, but that's not even what I went to school for. I actually went to college. I went to the University of Virginia, and I studied theater in school. Wow. Never having nothing to do with what I'm doing right now, or so I thought, because as my journey went on, my training in the theater actually had a lot to do with my career path, and I could talk about that. But my first job was early in the.com boom era, and I taught myself how to program, how to build websites. I had always loved computers ever since I was a kid. And we're talking like I'll date myself back in the Commodore 64 days. I had always had an affinity for that. And when I got out of school and pretty quickly realized, as much as I loved the creative arts, it was not a career that I necessarily wanted to be in. And this was around the time the.com boom was happening, and there were no classes for this yet. There were engineering classes like deep computer science degrees, but building things for websites. There wasn't a class for that. I taught myself. I went and bought books because I was interested in something. And from there, I was able to get my first job as an engineer at a company called HotJobs.com, which does not exist anymore, and it got bought by Yahoo. But over the years, I've worked for HotJobs, I've worked for WebMD, I've worked for a number of different media companies. I moved out to La. And took a job at the Walt Disney Company building websites for parks and resorts. So like disneyland.com, Disneyworld.com, I was working on those. And while at Disney, I transitioned into the television space, and I was working for ABC Daytime, managing engineering there. Throughout my career, what really kept moving me ahead, I found, was not necessarily my engineering skills. Though I felt I was a wonderful engineer, it was really my ability to communicate and to take ideas, work with executives, and turn them into digital things. Right. That's what really propelled me ahead. So it's been a journey, and it's gotten me to where I am.

Jackei - 00:05:07:

That's amazing. Dara one of the things that's so impressive about the conversations that we've had is just how you jump into new things, right. But so many of us are afraid to get out of our comfort zone, and it seems like you've done that continually throughout your career. Not being afraid to pick up a book and learn something new. How do you do that? And what advice would you give to those of us who are afraid to make that leap?

Dara - 00:05:36:

So here's the advice I would give. It's okay to be afraid. It's okay to be afraid. I've been afraid plenty in my life. As you said, I've jumped into a lot of new things. It's not because I'm just fearless. It's because I can say, okay, yeah, I'm afraid and I might mess up and this might not work out, but I do it anyway, right? So go ahead and embrace that. It's okay to be scared. It's okay not to be perfect. It's okay to fail. Once you kind of accept that, then it makes you a little less afraid, and you can always learn more. That's been a thing with me. You do not know everything. You don't need to know everything to move forward in life. This is not just career. This is life. Right?

Jackei - 00:06:23:

Yeah.

Dara - 00:06:23:

I'm still learning stuff every day. And so that makes it possible for me to just say, all right, well, I'm going to go ahead and try this new thing, and I'm going to learn something.

Jackei - 00:06:33:

That's fantastic, that's so important, because so many of us want to try the new thing or have an idea about where we'd like to go with our career or a personal change or anything. But it's scary to make that leap. And what you're saying was just such good advice. Is it's okay to be afraid? That doesn't mean don't do it. Don't try it.

Dara - 00:06:56:

Absolutely. And just to add in too, for so many of the young people today, we've all just been through a very trying time. But even before that, everyone feels like they have to have it all figured out. I went to school and I graduated, and now I need to X. No, you don't. Right. It can be a path that is winding. You don't have to have it all figured out at 19, 20, 21, 22. It's an experience.

Jackei - 00:07:24:

Absolutely, Dara. That's exactly right. Dara, let's talk about your position as CEO of Dictionary.com. Can you share a little about your role? What does the CEO Dictionary.com do?

Dara - 00:07:38:

I do what a lot of CEOs do. But really, for me, the first things that I wanted to focus on coming into the role were setting a really clear mission and vision for the company. Right. So our mission is to be the premier destination to learn, discover, and have fun with the limitless words and meetings. The limitless world of words and meetings. Right?

Jackei - 00:08:05:

Yeah.

Dara - 00:08:05:

We will help you make sense of the ever evolving English language so you can put your ideas into words and your words into action. Right. Coming in as the CEO, that was one of the first things I did. Sit down with my leadership team, craft a really strong mission and vision for where I want the company to go, and then from there flows the strategy to achieve that. How do we realize that mission and vision and from there, set the tactics to achieve that strategy. Right. So your job as a leader of a company is to do that, set the vision, and then put the right team in place to execute on that, because without the team, you're not going anywhere. Okay. So that was really key for me. Set the direction for the company, put the people in place, come up with a strategy, and then work through the tactics to execute.

Jackei - 00:09:00:

Beautiful. Thank you for that.

Dara - 00:09:02:

Sure.

Jackei - 00:09:04:

With the many roles that you've had over the course of your career, Dara, at many different levels, let's talk about diversity in business from your perspective. What are the benefits of having been one of the few in STEM? Right. At higher levels within organizations, what's your advice to leaders about creating those environments where diverse employees can thrive?

Dara - 00:09:33:

So, first of all, as it's very clear, there's not a ton of diversity in STEM fields and even less in leadership in STEM roles. And so one of the I don't know that that's a benefit to me. But to companies, when I come in, I can bring in a diverse viewpoint, a way of looking at things that maybe hadn't been thought of before, but also from the lens of there is an entire audience that sometimes isn't being considered as things are being built and created. Right. So being able to come in and bring that voice, I think is fantastic. As far as advice that I could give leaders, I would say that, first of all, sometimes you got to look outside of your normal places that you go to find talent. I have been in so many conversations where we're recruiting for roles, right? And a lot of times when you're recruiting for roles, you need people, right? I was like, I got to get stuff done. I got to recruit for roles. Let's just do the fastest thing to find the good people, right? And I've had a number of conversations where I say, well, I want the best person for this role, but all the options you're presenting me, there's no diverse talent here and been told, well, we can't find them. And my response is often, I'm sitting right here, right? If I'm sitting here and I exist, these people exist. Right. And they may not be in the first place that you look. You're going to have to get creative. But don't tell me that there are no diverse candidates to consider. As leaders, you do have to be intentional and sometimes you have to push. And it's not always that those who are doing the looking are lazy or don't want to do that. They're trying to be effective at their jobs, and that's fine. But as a leader, is it incumbent upon me and others? You do have to insist sometimes to at least be given an option of someone to look at. As far as making it a more I don't know what the word you use was, inviting or a place where diverse candidates can thrive. That's harder, right? Because there's a lot of studies about, while you may bring diverse candidates in, they don't often feel welcome or they feel uncomfortable and they don't stay, right? So that is a challenge that companies are still wrestling with. But it does help if they have leadership that is also diverse, someone that they can look to and say, oh, it is possible to grow and thrive here, wherever the here is, because they can see a model for that.

Jackei - 00:12:18:

That's exactly right. Dara and I've heard that with so many organizations and having conversations with employees and prospective employees, they want to see themselves in the higher echelons of leadership. And if they don't see that, they do wonder, how far can I go with this organization? So it's so important. And you're right about, as you're recruiting, get outside of those two or three places that you always go, right. What are some new ways and new locations new ways to think about recruiting so that you can attract those diverse candidates. It's so important. That's such great advice, Dara. One of the things that you talk about often is building strong teams. Let's talk about the importance of building strong teams within an organization. How do leaders begin to do that?

Dara - 00:13:15:

Building a strong team is critical to the success of any business. The people are what make businesses successful and thrive. It's not the things, it's not the technology. Yeah, sure, all of that is very important. But the thing that's the engine that's going to make your business go is the people. And in order for the people to be a strong engine, they have to have strong leaders in place. So how important is it? It's everything right to success, and it's something that does take time. Right. Building a leadership team is not a quick endeavor. I tend to look for, yes, proven leaders, but also people who have shown that they can grow into a leadership role. When I'm looking for leaders, yeah, I look at their background, I look at do they have the technical, hard skills that are needed? But leadership is about so much more than that. It really comes down to how is this person in managing other people? Can this person grow other people? Because the role of a leader is not just to lead and, like, you're in charge of everything and everybody else is below you. No, your job is to grow people so that they can replace you. So when I'm looking at a leadership team, I'm looking at all of those things, and I'm trying to build that strong team because it really is just essential to success.

Jackei - 00:14:46:

Absolutely. And you made such good points there. Very often we move to leadership because we're excellent individual contributors, but there's not that learning between moving from individual contributor to now leading people. And we have to spend time really helping those potential leaders gain those skills that are necessary to ensure that the people that are reporting to them can thrive. And in fact, as you said, you want to be replaced from the perspective of what you do day to day so that you can move up, so that they can move up so that your business can grow and thrive. That's so important.

Dara - 00:15:31:

And I got to tell you, from personal experience, that can be a hard transition from individual contributor to leader. It's funny, back when I was really making the transition from engineer to more the business side of things, I had a little trouble letting go of the engineer. Dara and I still sometimes get in the weeds, and my team's like, Why are you asking about code? Like, what? What are you doing? But there was a joke at one of the jobs. It was like up. They could tell when Dara had been in the code when she had no business being in, because she just couldn't keep her hands out building something. I had to learn, really how to step back and that my job was different now. And that can be an adjustment that not everybody can make.

Jackei - 00:16:14:

Right.

Dara - 00:16:15:

But it is essential.

Jackei - 00:16:17:

Absolutely. And I'm sure with you, Dara, with having worked in so many aspects of business, you can jump into so many different pieces. That's got to be great in so many aspects, but also challenging for you to say, I'm leading this business. I need to think about the vision and the overall and get out of the weeds a little bit, right?

Dara - 00:16:41:

Yeah. You don't want to be a micromanager. You don't want to do that. But for me, getting in the weeds can be fun, but it does take away from what you're actually supposed to be doing.

Jackei - 00:16:54:

That's right. Dara, let's talk about the importance of words as they relate to inclusion, and for those who have listened to my podcast for a while about my book, The Inclusive Language Handbook. But I want to talk about how words can affect relationships and messages. Will you share your thoughts there with us?

Dara - 00:17:17:

Yeah. So words look, I work for a dictionary, right? That's right. We know as a dictionary, that how really very well language can include or exclude people. It is our mission as a dictionary to be descriptive. That means we're documenting language as it's really used. Right. And that involves ensuring that we are reflecting and respecting the language of people as they actually use it. Where I continue to learn and grow on this topic is with pronouns, right. Referring to people in the way that they want to be referred to. This is an area where I've really leaned in with my leadership team around using the correct words and pronouns to describe team members. And I don't always get it. Right. I come from a generation that is different, and I'm used to doing things a certain way, but that doesn't mean, as I said, I can't learn to do things in a different way. So the power of language to validate a person is huge, and so we do have to be intentional and thoughtful about that.

Jackei - 00:18:35:

Absolutely. And one of the things that I often say is when we think about diversity, equity, and inclusion as a whole, from an organizational level, it's so big. But using inclusive language and being thoughtful about the words that you use is a way that we as individuals can contribute to environments of inclusion. So I totally agree with that. Dara, you've mentioned that mentoring is important. It's easier to understand the value of mentoring for the individual being mentored. But what's the value of mentoring for the mentor?

Dara - 00:19:14:

Oh, my goodness. I learned so much because mentors usually are older. I guess I've had to come to accept, oh, I'm not the youth anymore, I'm older. Okay, that's me. But no, I learned so much about culture and the world from different perspectives that I hadn't thought of before or seen before. And it's a two way street, mentoring. So to your point, yes, I am able to impart advice about where I've been, what I've done, how I might handle situations, but then I'll occasionally have someone who comes to me and says, hey, but did you know this? Oh, you know what? I didn't. Right. I get educated as well, and that keeps me relevant, and it makes me a better person and a better leader when I'm able to draw from those who have different experiences from me as I'm mentoring.

Jackei - 00:20:11:

Yeah, absolutely. That's so smart and such good advice there. And again, mentoring is so important, especially for underrepresented professionals, to have someone that you can relate to that understands some of those struggles, some of those challenges, some of those roadblocks. It's so important. So I love that.

Dara - 00:20:33:

It's interesting. I didn't really come to understand I understood an intellectual level that that was important. But from a personal experience level, I hadn't really thought about it much until maybe eight, nine years ago as I was in more leadership roles. And I started having young people, young black people, young black women in particular, come to me and say, can I just talk to you for ten minutes? And at first, it was like, I mean, yeah, sure. But not really understanding how important it was just to be there. Right. I didn't get it at first. And I had a young woman say to me, I was actually moving from one role to a company to another, and she asked for time to talk to me, and I said, sure. I'm always like, sure, let's talk. She said, I just wanted to say thank you, because I had never seen someone who looked like me in your role. And I didn't know that was a possibility. And it it kind of hit me. I was like, yeah, you're welcome. It didn't hit me until later on in life. That was really important emotionally.

Jackei - 00:21:45:

Absolutely. And the thing about that, Dara, is if you don't see it, you don't know that you can be it. Right? So amplifying voices like yours to say, yes, you can be a black woman CEO of a large company, of a small company, you can be an entrepreneur. There's so many things that we can be. Right. And I just love this conversation because it does amplify in another way right. With my small audience, that you can see it and you can be it. And that's so important for our young folks today. So I appreciate that, dara, let's talk a little about some personal right, especially in this society, are always leading with the business aspect. But a couple let's talk about a few questions personally. What has inspired you? You've done some amazing things, very accomplished. What are some of the things that have inspired you over your lifetime?

Dara - 00:22:49:

Oh, boy. Many things. I mean, I talked about books a lot. Right. So I have always, always been a voracious reader, and I've drawn a lot of my inspiration for I don't even know if I'm called inspiration books have always shown me that anything is possible, and I've taken from that, really, to say, okay, I can get anything through the power of knowledge and learning. Right. So just that alone was enough to really kind of push me forward. And then I grew up in a black community, and I watched different sorts of entrepreneurs having their own businesses. I just had so many different lenses from which to draw experience and see. Oh, I've seen black women, business owners. I've seen communities come together around things. I've seen all these things. Very inspirational for me. So I draw inspiration from almost anywhere, to be honest. If I see something, whether or not it pertains directly to me, if I can glean some new information from it, I'm like, oh, there's something else I can go after. That's just the way my brain kind of always has been.

Jackei - 00:24:06:

Amazing. Yeah. That is so cool. Dara, what do you do when you're not working?

Dara - 00:24:15:

Let's see. I talked about reading so much, but the truth is, as a mom, I don't get to do it as much as I used to, and it makes me so sad. But one of the jokes that my family has is that I'm actually, or I have been throughout my life, an avid crochet. I've had people joke and say, what are you, 80? I was like, oh, but I want to get my needle out. I've got my book with the patterns, and so I do that a lot.

Jackei - 00:24:47:

I love that.

Dara - 00:24:48:

So books, crochet. I'm a very internal sort of person. Things that I can do that free up my mind to think and relax. So reading, crocheting, traveling, that's kind of a standard answer. And spending time with my daughter, I love that.

Jackei - 00:25:08:

And she's ten.

Dara - 00:25:09:

She is ten going on 40 or whatever.

Jackei - 00:25:12:

Absolutely. I love that. Now, Dara, tell me about some of the places that you've traveled that have impacted you.

Dara - 00:25:23:

So I did a semester abroad in Ghana when I was in college. It was so interesting. So I think it was my junior third year of college, and I did the semester abroad, and my family was kind of like, you want to do what? My family's done that a lot in my life. You want to do what? I'm just going to go, I'm going to be an actress. You want to do what? So I did this semester abroad, and it was amazing, right? It was one of those times where when you're young, you're fearless, you really are. You think nothing can hurt you.

Jackei - 00:25:57:

That's right.

Dara - 00:25:58:

And I probably did all kinds of crazy stuff that wasn't safe because I was just on my own in Africa, out partying in the club, still want to find myself, like, what am I thinking? But it showed me that I was able to travel alone to have new experiences. I think I got very sick, actually, while I was there, and it was just me, and I had to figure out, okay, I'm okay. I can live through this. I'm fine. It made me realize I could really do almost anything. And to be in a country that was all black people, too, was like a revelation because that wasn't my life. So I would say that's a trip that had a real impact on me because it was extended and I was on my own.

Jackei - 00:26:40:

Yeah. And amazing independence you had to discover there.

Dara - 00:26:44:

It really made it so that and I've moved a lot in my life around different places, but I think that was part of it. If I could live there, I can move to California, I can move to Georgia, I can live in Virginia. There's nothing to stop me, really.

Jackei - 00:26:58:

I love that. And I think some of those experiences help you lean into the fear to try those new things.

Dara - 00:27:05:

Absolutely.

Jackei - 00:27:06:

That's fantastic. Dara dictionary.com the word for 2022 was woman, and that surge came from the confirmation hearing for judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, who became the first black woman to be confirmed as the US supreme court justice. As we're recording this, we're only a third of the way through the year. But if you were to choose a word for 2023, what would it be today and why?

Dara - 00:27:38:

Okay, so first, to be honest, I think our choice for 2022 woman continues to remain relevant even now with everything that's going on. But here's the thing. We really can't choose a word so far because a resident and relevant word of the year sums up a year in a word. And I have a talented team, let me just tell you. They take in all the data, all the lookups, all the moments, all the trends to consider what that word is going to be. And we can't at this point predict what's going to happen in the world and in language, but I know that's not what you're getting at. One topic that I would say has been at the center of around what's going on in 2023 is AI. Artificial Intelligence. That's come up a lot that could be a good contender this year, technologies like ChatGPT, things that are really breaking through and changing everything, how we work, how we think. And it's happening so fast. So there's a couple of contenders, but till my team of experts weighs in for what could be the word of the year.

Jackei - 00:28:47:

So, Dara, what would your word of the year for you personally be for 2023?

Dara - 00:28:54:

Perseverance.

Jackei - 00:28:56:

Tell me about that.

Dara - 00:28:58:

Well, for me, it has been a year of the past year, if I'm going date to date, has really been about persevering to create the future for the business that I run for myself personally and my family. And persevering in my mission to, as I'm doing right now, talk about the importance of leading thoughtfully and what it does mean to be an example as a person, a woman of color in an industry that doesn't have a lot of us. So perseverance is I could use that word almost every year, but that would be a personal choice for me.

Jackei - 00:29:44:

Amazing. Now, Dara, for those of us who are entering into industries where there aren't a lot of us, right, or we may be the only one, what's the advice to give to those folks that you have about perseverance, about pushing forward, about how to navigate those experiences?

Dara - 00:30:08:

I'll give you a little anecdote about something, and it has to do with allies, even when you are the only one, which often happens. So I was in a leadership role, and there was a point where my boss had to step out for a while, and I thought I was going to be tapped to lead, and I was not, right? They brought in this gentleman over me, and I was like, I was not happy, right? And so I had kind of a chip on my shoulder about it. And this man, he kept trying to have lunch with me. He was like, oh, let's have lunch. And I'm like, I'm busy, right? I got stuff to do. I don't have time for this. And finally I said, he kept staying up to fine. And we're talking, and we go to this lunch, and I'm like, Whatever. And he says to me, you know, Dara, you're really good at your job, but you should get up and walk around and talk to people. And I was just like, maybe you have time to walk around and talk to people. I have things to do. But I'm like, yeah, whatever. It wasn't until years later that I realized he was trying to help me. And so to answer your question, extend yourself and open yourself up to allies and others who may not look like you yes, but can do a lot to further you in whatever your career is. So that's a piece of advice that was given to me, but I couldn't hear it until later.

Jackei  - 00:31:44:

That's such good advice. And I found that over the course of my personal professional development, I haven't always been ready to receive good advice. And so sometimes you have to double back to those things because it's not until you've had additional experiences that you're ready to receive that good advice, because we all think through our own lens. And so it's so important to be open to perspectives that are different than ours, people that are different than us because they can sometimes provide us so much additional wisdom. I love that. That's such a great example.

Dara - 00:32:26:

And you might be surprised, but people who you thought were different, they're not as different as you think they are.

Jackei - 00:32:32:

Absolutely. That's exactly right, dara, as we begin to wrap. Up. Tell me, what's the message that you want to leave our listeners with today?

Dara - 00:32:43:

We covered it a bit, and it is that do not be afraid to do things that you have not done before. It is okay to try new things. It is okay to mess up. Just always be open and willing to learn and raise your hand if you're in a room and someone's in your department or someone's looking for someone to try something new or take on a new task, even if you haven't done it before, raise your hand. That's the message that I want to be. Don't be afraid to jump out there and try something new.

Jackei - 00:33:17:

I love that. And one of the things that I've discovered in some studies and research, especially around women and then certainly culturally diverse women, is we have to feel totally qualified before we want to apply for that job or volunteer to do something. We have to know that we can take it from A to Z, no problem. And sometimes we got to jump in early and try something new. And I love that advice. That is so good.

Dara - 00:33:46:

I got a little anecdote to go with that in a time. So this was earlier in my career, I was still more on the engineering side. I was managing people, but I was still more on the engineering side. And there was this director level role that opened up that was more on the business side, and I didn't apply. I waited and I waited and I waited, and finally, I just said, I should apply for this. And when I went to go do it, my boss at the time was a woman. She looked at me and she said, what were you waiting for? Right? And I had that moment. It was just what's I waiting for. It was like I had to work myself up to get to this. And she was just like, I've been waiting for you to apply for this. What were you waiting for?

Jackei - 00:34:33:

Oh, my goodness. I love that. What a great way to end. And I want to, Dara, have people get in touch with you. So let's let people know how they can learn more about your work at dictionary.com and get in touch with you.

Dara - 00:34:48:

Absolutely. So for the work, you can go right to the source, right. dictionary.com, thesaurus.com, right? There in the name. We're doing a lot of great things on social, so we're at dictionary.com on Instagram and Twitter. We're dictionary.com on Facebook. Look out for TikTok, because we can be doing some stuff there too. But for me, individually, I'm old school. I'm boring. You can best find me on LinkedIn. To be honest, my social presence isn't as exciting as some others, but I'm there a lot on LinkedIn.

Jackei - 00:35:21:

I love that. And Dara, just to end, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation, so inspiring, amazing advice, and I just want to leave it with. What are you waiting for? That's such a great way to end it.

Dara - 00:35:37:

There we go.

Jackei - 00:35:38:

Love it. Love it. Thank you, Dara, so much for spending some time with me today. I've enjoyed it.

Dara - 00:35:43:

Thank you for having me.I have greatly enjoyed it as well.

Jackie - 00:35:55:

Thanks for joining me for this episode. Please take a moment to subscribe and review this podcast and share this episode with a friend. Become a part of our community on LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter. This show was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Join us for our next episode of Diversity Beyond the Checkbox. Take care of yourself and each other.