Mastering Deep Listening with Oscar Trimboli: Unveiling the Art of Understanding Unspoken Communication

Jackie - 00:00:10:

You're listening to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox, brought to you by The Diversity Movement. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, speaker, and human rights advocate. On this show, I'm talking to trailblazers. Game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share their inspiring stories and insights on business inclusion and personal development. Thank you for downloading this episode. I am truly grateful for you. Enjoy the show. You're listening to the Diversity Beyond the Checkbox podcast. On this episode, I'm joined by Oscar Trimboli, author, award-winning podcaster, and keynote speaker on the topic of deep listening. Oscar, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here.

Oscar - 00:01:02:

Good day, Jackie. Really looking forward to listening to your questions today.

Jackie - 00:01:06:

I'm excited to ask them. And Oscar, let's start with the intro, right? I said deep listening. What is deep listening?

Oscar - 00:01:17:

Well, many people have heard about active listening. That's listening to what people say. Kind of paraphrasing back to them and nodding and, yeah. So act-active listening is noticing what people say. Deep listening is noticing what people don't say. And when you understand the maths, the neuroscience of listening, I speak at 125 to 150 words per minute. You may speak a little quicker than me. Yet. The average person will think at about 900 words per minute. That can range from 600 words per minute to 1,600 words per minute. But on average, let's say 900. That means that the very first thing somebody says is about 14% of what they think and what they mean. So deep listening is hearing the 86% of what people don't say.

Jackie - 00:02:11:

Yes. And you know, Oscar, I'm the type of person that I thought active listening is as far as I need to go, right? Pay attention when someone's listening because so many of us will be listening, right? I'm doing air quotes for people that are listening to the audio, to people talking, but really they're saying, okay, What do I have to do for work? And what am I going to have for dinner? And all of these different things. And they're, as you said in the beginning, ah-ha-ing you to death and not really hearing what you're saying. Not Just paying attention to body language and the unsaid things, which we're going to get into, but really not even hearing what you're saying. Tell me, Oscar, why is this such a necessary skill for all of us? 

Oscar - 00:03:00:

Yeah. I'm going to come back to that question, but Jackie, I noticed you use this phrase to pay attention. Uh-huh. Just earlier on. One of the things I want us all to become conscious of when we say pay attention, that's one form of attention. Another form of attention is to give attention. So when we think about paying for something, we think we have to do it. It's an obligation. It's like taxation. We have to do it. Yet when we give attention, it's an act of curiosity. It's an act of generosity. It's an act that is inclusive of both me as the speaker and you as the listener. So when we think about even before we arrive to the conversation, notice the quality of attention you bring. Now, be careful. You can't give attention the whole time, nor can you pay attention the whole time. Because we're wired to be distracted. So we're going to listen much faster than what we can speak. And this is why listening without any training seems really hard and has some really big consequences to it as well. So during this conversation, notice, are you giving attention? Are you paying attention? So Jackie, I'm Just curious, as you hear me talk about the difference between the two qualities of attention, what's that got you thinking?

Jackie - 00:04:25:

Well, one, I said that specifically because I know that that's in your book. So I was hoping that you'd stop me when I said that. And you did. So thank you. Because I thought that was really interesting. And. I think that depending on the conversation, I pay attention or give attention. But I'm trying to, after reading your book, which we'll get into in a minute, be more conscious of giving attention. Because we all deserve that, right? We all want to be really heard and really understood. And I totally agree at paying attention, you know, with, if we think about, you know, parents or, or managers or whatever, sometimes we're paying attention, especially, you know, as a child, my mom is my, you know, most important listener. So I give her attention now. So hi mom. But as a child, and as an adult with lots of people, we're paying attention and not giving it. But that, I think, intentionality of how much time we want to spend. Really dedicate to hearing what a person is saying, understanding them, and also being aware of what's happening with body language and things like that, I think is important. So Just understanding the difference, Oscar, has really been helpful.

Oscar - 00:05:57:

Yeah, and keep in mind, you can't give attention all the time to everybody, not going to pay attention all the time to everybody. And if the conversation is routine, like a flight safety announcement, you might pay attention. But if you're dealing with complex, collaborative, difficult conversations, it's probably when you want to give attention. To the situation, and for many of us, I don't know about you, Jackie, but my clients keep saying to me, hey, Oscar, I'm racing from back to back to meetings. I have so many browser tabs opened in my mind. It's chewing into the memory in my mind and I can't process the last meeting, let alone get to the next meeting. And then you're asking me to notice my attention. This is difficult. Help, help. Mm-hmm.

Jackie - 00:06:52:

And so, Oscar, what's the advice that you give? We're doing so many different things over the course of the day. And doing one thing and thinking three steps ahead. What's your advice when we're exhausted or when we're, we've got too many things on our plate or too many tabs open, as you say, how do we give attention or what, or when is it okay to, to not give attention?

Oscar - 00:07:21:

I think if we all think about our cell phone, we care about the battery level in our cell phone. It's like, it's green, it's yellow, it's orange, it's red. Oh, my goodness, how much battery have I got left? Your attention, your listening is the same thing. So what I want everybody to do right now is Just notice, and Jackie, do this with me and you be the proxy for the audience, right? If you think about coming into listening right now, what color is the listening battery charged to in this conversation? What color label would you give it? Are you bright green? You're fully recharged? Are you a yellow, an orange, a red, or touching on shutdown?

Jackie - 00:08:09:

So my time right now is about four o'clock. In the afternoon and I've been working all day. So about 20 minutes ago, I said, okay, I need to stop because this is the most important conversation of my day. And I want to be really present for it. And I also don't want to fail again. A quiz from a world renowned deep listening. So I would say I'm on a strong yellow.

Oscar - 00:08:42:

Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's the first step. We can't always listen because our battery is not charged. And the right conversation at the wrong time. It's still the wrong conversation. It may sound like this. Jackie, I'm on another time zone. And for me to be the most effective for your audience, we're probably going to have to schedule this conversation a little later than you normally do. This is a true story, by the way, for everybody listening. So Jackie's changed her process Just for me, and I'm really grateful. Yet in that negotiation, I know this conversation is going to be more effective than if I got up at 2 a.m. In the morning, which was the proposed time for this conversation. The other way it shows up if you're a leader or a manager and somebody bumps into you or somebody sends you a chat message in electronic format and goes, hey, do you have a quick moment? I need to talk. Notice your listening battery. And if I'm a strong yellow, as Jackie is, you probably, okay, you can have that conversation. But if you're not, if you're down in the oranges and the reds, Jackie, I sense what you say is really important. And for me to bring my full attention, I Just need to take some time out. Could we do this in about 10 minutes? Could we do this tomorrow? Could we schedule this so I come to the conversation fully prepared? Now, by the way, ask them what they want to chat about. You can't make that decision without them. So the first thing we want to do to... Become deeper listeners. It's got nothing to do with a conversation with the speaker. That's part two. Part one of five parts. Is you need to listen to yourself. And when I noticed that I need to do a recharge, by the way, Jackie, what was your technique in that 20 minutes? What did you do? Because some people go for a walk to recharge their listening batteries. Some people listen to music to recharge their listening batteries. Some people drink a glass of water to recharge their listening batteries. Some people do some really simple noticing and breathing exercises to recharge their listening batteries. Some people change their physical environment. Some people have something to eat. What was your technique for 20 minutes?

Jackie - 00:11:23:

I sat still. So for me, you know, I'm moving from one thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing. So turning off my notifications and Just sitting still for 20 minutes allowed my battery to move back up.

Oscar - 00:11:40:

What did you notice happen to you physically rather than mentally in that moment of stillness?

Jackie - 00:11:47:

I was less tired. Better focus. It changed my mood from the daily stress to a little bit more relaxed.

Oscar - 00:11:59:

And I sense the kind of questions you want to ask and noticing how, unlike other guests, Oscar's actually interacting with me and I'm supposed to Just ask the questions and he's supposed to give the answers. He's not supposed to put me on the stage too, right? So how did that feel to kind of the dynamics a little different in this conversation?

Jackie - 00:12:22:

Yeah, it's, I'm enjoying it. You know, you're, you're a hundred percent right. Usually I'm asked the one asking the questions and not being asked questions. But, you know, it's familiar because I've been on a lot of podcasts as well. And so it's a fun interaction.

Oscar - 00:12:39:

If we Just check in and go, how's this conversation going compared to your initial expectations?

Jackie - 00:12:50:

I think it's going great. You've already given so many amazing nuggets that I have the privilege of knowing through reading your book. So I'm excited. I think people are saying, oh, well, okay, I've learned some things already. So I'm looking forward to the rest of the conversation.

Oscar - 00:13:11:

All right, well, let's go to the rest of the conversation. 

Jackie - 00:13:13:

Awesome. Oscar, tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming an expert in this area.

Oscar - 00:13:24:

Well, I don't call myself an expert because I'm trying to teach something so I can learn it. And it's nice that you call me an expert, so thank you. And growing up, I had a werewolf jaw. If you put your fist in front of your jaw, That's how far my jaw was out. So most people have orthodontic work to straighten their teeth. I had orthodontic work over five years to pull my jaw back. Thank you to my parents for this wonderful investment. My face is back to where other people don't notice me and call me a werewolf and make jokes and all of that. So as a teenager, when you don't want somebody to notice your physical appearance, you get really good at deflecting, you get really good at asking questions, you get really good at putting the attention on them. So the first part of the journey was... Rather than having the spotlight on me, how do I put the spotlight on them? And I became really good at noticing the kinds of questions where people were Just talking, talking, talking, talking, talk, which were the high value questions for me because they weren't paying attention to me, or the ones that weren't, that Just gave short answers. Now, I went to a school with 23 different nationalities, and there were many wars going on around the world at the time I was growing up. In South America, in Eastern Europe, in Southeast Asia, particularly in Vietnam and Cambodia. So at our school, apart from football, the world game, soccer, for those of you listening in other nationalities, we had a card game that was played in teams, two players to each team, and typically the card games were in the national groups and they would speak in their home country language. Portuguese, Polish, Vietnamese, Greeks. They would form teams and they would talk in their home language and thinking they would have a natural advantage over the other teams, but those advantages were actually canceled out because both teams were speaking in their home language. Now, as a pickup player, if one team was short, I would join their team, but I didn't speak any language. What I did notice, though, was the amazing clues they were giving me with non-verbal signals, how their eyebrows were moving where they were touching the cards, the inclination or declination in their voice. Or, despite the fact I couldn't speak Vietnamese, I knew if somebody was excited about their card or not. And as the person who only spoke one language ironically gave me an advantage in reading body language. And then in the workplace. The last part of the story that glues it all together. Was in her. Budgeting meeting in 2008 and there was 18 people on it. It was a video conference between Sydney, Seattle and Singapore. And this meeting was supposed to go for 90 minutes. And at the 20-minute mark, my vice president, who was in the room, she looked me straight in the eye and she said, Oscar, we need to talk immediately after this meeting. Now, I don't know about you, Jackie, but that's the equivalent of my wife, Jenny, saying, honey, we need to talk. 

Jackie - 00:16:49:

We need to talk. 

Oscar - 00:16:52:

So, what did I do next? Ironically, I didn't listen to the rest of the meeting. I took out a Sharpie and I wrote down how many weeks of salary I thought I had left and the names of five people I needed to call because I'm about to get fired. Now, the meeting finished early, and as everybody moved out of their room and collected their notepads, their laptops, I tried to join them. And Tracy said, hey, Oscar, make sure you close the door. When you come back to the desk, what I've got to say to you is very important. And as I stepped back towards the table, dreading every step I was taking, Jackie, Tracy says to me, you have no idea what you did at the 20-minute mark, do you? And I thought, wow, I'm getting fired and I don't even know why. So I sat down and Tracy said to me, Oscar, If you could code how you listen, you could change the world. What I heard was, woo-hoo, I haven't been fired. Right. It's important for leaders to understand that how you communicate and what you say and what the other person's hearing, there's a filter in between both of them. And although Tracy's listening was profound, she changed my life. That point in time I was Just happy I wasn't fired. So since 2008, I've been trying to code not how I listen but how the best listeners in the world listen. So there's kind of three stories that pull it all together.

Jackie - 00:18:37:

I appreciate that, Oscar. You know, you talked about understanding body language. Can you give us a few tips on what we should be looking for as we're listening to what's not being said, as you say?

Oscar - 00:18:54:

There's a body language element to what's not being said, and there's also language elements to what's not being said as well. So, yeah. We'll talk about the body signals. Most of us don't realize that We either listen with our eyes first and our ears second. Or we listen with our ears first and our eyes second. Now, most people don't know which one they are. Here's a really easy way to figure it out. If you love face-to-face meetings and you really struggle on video conference, you're probably eyes first, ears second. If you love listening to the video conference and you can probably listen with your eyes closed or gaze away from the person speaking, you're probably ears first, eyes second. Which one are you, Jackie, by the way?

Jackie - 00:19:54:

I think I'm eyes first.

Oscar - 00:19:58:

So how do you go with video conference? 

Jackie - 00:20:01:

Um, it's fine, but I prefer video conference to phone calls and things like that.

Oscar - 00:20:09:

That's a good clue as well, yeah.

Jackie - 00:20:12:

But it's important that I can see a person. I feel like there's, um, A different level of connection when you can see a person versus phone calls.

Oscar - 00:20:23:

Yeah. And what clues are you getting from the way I'm engaging with you? Because we're doing this via video, even though you'll be maybe watching it on video or listening to it on audio. What clues am I giving you without using any words?

Jackie - 00:20:40:

You look relaxed. You look engaged, which is always nice for a podcast. And you don't look distracted, which is something that happens a lot, especially when you're on video, you know, video conference with teams.

Oscar - 00:20:58:

So what are the cues I'm giving you to show you I'm not distracted?

Jackie - 00:21:04:

Eye contact in the video and not fidgeting around. Doing other things.

Oscar - 00:21:14:

Yeah. So for many of us, we're using these cues and we're not even conscious of them. So for those who are visual first and auditory second, here's a couple of tips. When we spoke to the human lie detector, Dr. Susan Constantine, she helps legal teams put together jury selection criteria based on people's nonverbal signals. And she says most people get nonverbal signals wrong. They have these horoscope kind of approaches to nonverbal signals. So if they look up and to the right, they're accessing creative. And if they're looking down and to the left, they're accessing historic. Biggest bunch of rubbish, she would say. Dr. Paul Ekman, the founder of the field, would say, as Susan would say, you need to notice what people's base level body language is. And then when they deviate from it. Not, up and to the right. Up and to the right could mean the fan Just flickered and they looked up and to the right. Down and to the left, Could be they thought they saw something move across the floor. And too many of us code one-offs incorrectly. So be careful when it comes to body language. What you want to do is notice the pattern in which they communicate. How do they show up? Where's their spine position? At their head tilt, is it straight or do they go over to one side? And we want to notice when that changes. I remember working with a client and it was a funny meeting because I'd had three meetings with her and we jumped into the room that we were meeting and I remember the time because there was a clock directly behind her on the wall and the meeting started at five after 11 and she said to me, I said, well, we'll make this a good conversation and she said to me, Oscar, and this is pre-COVID, she said, Oscar, put your hazmat suit on because I'm about to vomit all over you. It's like, okay. So the context is she was leading a big merger integration between two companies. She was the company that was being acquired and she was really upset because typically it's the company that buys you that puts the person in that role. Anyway, until 29 minutes after the hour, sure enough, there was Just a tirade of vomit, complaint, all of this coming from her. And I literally said nothing. Yet, 10 minutes in... I noticed her breathing changed. She took a big sigh and then she continued on with a vomit. She finally finished. She goes, okay, Oscar, I've finished now. That feels so good. And she said, we can wrap up the meeting. I don't need the full hour. I've got everything I need from this conversation. I said, great. Look, before we wrap up. Did you notice when you did and she said, Oh, yes. That was the point at which I made a decision. At that point, I realized that it was my job to take responsibility for everything going forward. And in that moment, Oscar, when I took that breath, I'd made the decision. I knew I had to vomit some more stuff out, but now I'm taking responsibility. So in that story, we noticed the baseline pattern was Just complain, complain, complain, but then there was a stop and a big breath. There's something worth. Now, I didn't say, hey, did you make a decision when you took that big breath in? I did not say, hey, did something powerful happen to you when you took that deep breath in? No, I Just asked her to notice, did she? Take a breath. And in that moment, by saying it out aloud, not only did she make a decision, but I think she committed to the decision as well in that moment. So they're some of the nonverbals. When it comes to verbals, There's also some clues in the verbal signals to help you notice things. If people use phrases that are absolute language, like always, never precisely. These are clues that are showcasing the edge of that person's mental model, their boundary conditions for their thinking. When they say that, they have not invited themselves to a possibility beyond that. Now, it's not your job, again, to go Jackie, when you said exactly, I sensed that was the edge of your mental model.

Jackie - 00:26:24:

Right.

Oscar - 00:26:26:

People are going to feel absolutely insulted as opposed to you saying, Exactly. And people will joke with you and go, well, well, not exactly, but in most cases. Oh, which cases isn't that the case? And then the dialogue can explore some more diverse perspectives. Which one of those is helpful for you?

Jackie - 00:26:49:

You know, All of them, actually, because there are so many things that I never thought about. You know, we all have heard the, you know, watch for, you know, tightness and crossed arms, right? Or a furled brow. But listening to, for breathing and listening for words, specific words that can create different inflection points in the conversation are really interesting.

Oscar - 00:27:20:

You smiled when I used the absolutes and the exactlies. What was going on for you when that happened? By the way, that's one way of noticing exactly what we Just talked about. So there was a change. There was deep concentration on Jackie's part until I used the words absolute and exactly, and then there was a change in her state. So let's hear what Jackie was thinking at that time.

Jackie - 00:27:47:

I have very often used those absolutes in describing things particularly about me. What I always do, what I never do, right? And I'm moving out of that now that I'm approaching 50. I realize it's not always or it's not never, but generally most of the time, right? So I'm getting through that, but I have lived in the absolutes for the majority of my life. And so that resonated with me.

Oscar - 00:28:22:

And when you do work with clients to kind of get them beyond the checkbox in terms of diversity, how does noticing absolutes help the groups that you're working with?

Jackie - 00:28:35:

Yeah, that's a great question. I think that for me and the work that we do, a lot of times leaders have a very finite idea of what their employees think and feel. And it's very often wrong. Sometimes they're in the ballpark, which is nice, but it's very often not always or not never, right? And so the work is in exploring those things around us the generally or most of the time, right? Where are the outliers that allow us to improve the culture within organizations?

Oscar - 00:29:18:

Yeah. And you'll, you'll, know this story from the book, Jackie, but I want to kind of zoom us into a meeting I had in 2015 where there was 12 people in a group I was working with. And we, it was just around lunchtime, it was 12.35, and the reason I know it was 12.35 because the CEO was tapping on the table and pointing to the watch and it's like, I'm up. I think that was a signal for hungry. The food was due to come in at about quarter to, and we were getting through an exercise. The exercise was really simple. Describe this organization as an animal. And why. And as we went around the room, there was a pattern that developed. The animal was an eagle, an osprey, a cheetah. They move fast and they kill things, basically. Mm-hmm. Not my job to judge whether that's good or bad. At 5, 2. So the food's on the table. Five, two, one. Lunch is due at 1. We hadn't heard from one person. The Chief Financial Officer. And it wasn't my job to say, Elaine, we haven't heard from you. We're waiting for lunch. Could you Just tell us what animal? Where I am. This is noticing what's not said. There are voices in your meetings that are careful. That are synthesizers, that are deliberate. And as I invited Elaine into the conversation, I Just gestured with a hand. I didn't use any verbal cues or anything like that. And I Just reached out with an open palm. I didn't get too far away from my body. It was Just a short gesture. And there was a long pause and she said, I thought it was obvious. I thought, Wear a snake. And you could Just feel the tension in the room rising. Now, Jackie, when you think of a snake, what are the characteristics that come to mind for you when you describe a snake.

Jackie - 00:31:37:

Dangerous, will surprise you. Like, it's not coming at you. It's gonna sneak up on you.

Oscar - 00:31:45:

Yeah.

Jackie - 00:31:47:

I often think of people who are not trustworthy.

Oscar - 00:31:55:

Mm-hmm. Now, what you don't know about Elaine, the CFO, is her country of origin and her culture was not one of the dominant group. The dominant was a Western group. A line was from China. In China, snakes mean completely different things. In the West... Particularly in Christian and Judaic traditions. The snake is the first story you ever hear from the Bible, and it's a negative story. I opened my palm a little further towards her. And she continued with her story. And she said, like a snake, we're forgotten to shed our skins. Our skin is holding us back. From three and four years ago when we set up systems, processes and incentives. Our clients have moved on, our staff have moved on, but we as a leadership team have not shed our skin to embrace what's available to us now. And for the next 35 minutes, the group forgot to eat lunch and a deep, deep, deep conversation started to happen. And the deep conversation started to happen around What are the broken processes? How are they showing up in growth and profitability and team that we attract? All kinds of really meaningful conversations. Now the team broke for lunch about 1.30 and ate the food and the CEO asked me to go outside with him. And he said something that was quite puzzling to me initially, but powerful. When I realized what he said. You said, Oscar, we never hear from Elaine. So notice the absolute there. We never hear from Elaine. I noticed something powerful in our conversation after she spoke and it completely changed the direction of where the leadership is heading for the rest of the day. Can you show me how you did that? I said, well, I hope I showed you how to do that. Just hear from that. Now, what you don't know about this organization, they were growing at about 30% per annum up until that conversation. And for a lot of organizations, 30% is awesome. It's amazing. People will Just go, wow, I'd take that. The Marketplace they were operating in and the competitors they were competing with, they were growing at hundreds of percents. 110, 120, 130%. So although they were growing, they were not growing as fast as where their customers wanted them to be. After that... They got beanie toys made for snakes. Snakes became the code names for each product release schedule. Snakes became part of the incentive plan. And snakes were even integrated into their sales presentation as they told the story proudly that based on the customer feedback we hear, we shed our skin and change processes based on what our customers say. All because we could have chosen to go to lunch. We could have decided not to hear from Elaine. And somebody in the room needs to play the role of hearing from all voices. It's not always the host. It's not always the implied leader, the person who's got the biggest job or the owner or You can lead by exploring and hearing from all voices as an individual. Leadership is about change you bring to one other person. It's not a title. And in that moment completely changed the trajectory of our organization. From finance, from being quiet, from being from a non-dominant culture, This is the power of getting beyond the checkbox when you get an embraced others thinking in the room.

Jackie - 00:36:13:

This has been part one of a two-part podcast on deep listening. Tune in next week for the conclusion of this insightful and engaging conversation with world-renowned expert on how to listen, Oscar Trimboli. Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become a part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, and TikTok. This show is proudly part of the Living Corporate Network and was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.