Power, Planes, and Purpose: A Blueprint for Leading Across Difference with Stephanie Chung

Jackie - 00:00:00:

What does it take to lead people who are not like you? How can leaders move beyond performative allyship to create lasting impact? Today, we're sitting down with Stephanie Chung, an aviation industry trailblazer and the first African-American president of a private jet company, to explore these questions and more. Welcome to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox, the podcast where bold ideas meet inspiring stories brought to you by The Diversity Movement. I'm Jackie Ferguson, author, investor, business leader, and human rights advocate. Each episode, I sit down with trailblazers, game changers, and boundary pushers to uncover their journeys, insights, and strategies for success. Whether it's innovation, inclusion, or personal growth, we're here to ignite meaningful conversations that empower and inspire. Thank you for joining me today. Let's get started. Thanks for tuning in to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Stephanie Chung, author of Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. With over 35 years in aviation and a reputation for driving business growth and human capital transformation, Stephanie is a powerhouse in leadership and inclusive strategy. Named to Adweek's women Trailblazers and the Ebony Power 100, her insights inspire leaders to build stronger, more inclusive teams. Let's dive into her journey and explore how leaders can adapt to a changing workforce. Stephanie, thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm so excited to talk to you.

Stephanie - 00:01:57:

Thank you for having me. This is going to be best call of the day. So thank you so much, Jackie.

Jackie - 00:02:01:

I totally agree. Totally agree. Stephanie, let's talk a little bit about your career journey, because it's quite remarkable from starting as a baggage handler to becoming the first African-American president of a private aviation company. Can you walk us through some of the pivotal moments that shaped your career?

Stephanie - 00:02:20:

Absolutely. So I always love, I love to give credit where credit is due, Jackie, which is my dad. So my father was a master sergeant in the U.S. Air Force. So I actually grew up a military brat, and shout out to military kids, right? So I was one of those kids that because I worked, I lived on active Air Force bases, I knew early on that I wanted to be in aviation. Because I'd be hearing planes take off and land my whole life. However, the challenge was that whenever, and this is, you know, way back in the day, but whenever I would see aviators depicted in TV or film or magazines or anything like that, it was always, if you were a man, you were a pilot. And if you were a woman, you were a flight attendant, right? Now, the only problem was that none of those pictures ever look like me or you, right? That's right. Therefore, though I knew what I wanted to do, Jackie, I really didn't know what was available to me because I'd never seen a person of color depicted as an aviator. So fast forward, my very first job that I ever got was parking planes and load luggage at the Boston Logan Airport. So I started at the bottom, now we here, right? So I started way at the bottom. But, you know, what was really cool about that job is I had so much fun. You learn something new all the time. And I learned the operation and how to really operate an airline aviation company. So that was really pivotal. But anyways, during that time, I would make extra money or to make extra money. I would go work upstairs at the ticket counter checking customers in for their flight. So one time I was upstairs and one of our executives who I knew who he was because he was an executive in the airline. But I didn't think that he knew who I was. And so he came over to me and he's like, hey, Steph, every time I come through this airport, I see you. I see you, you know, with a smile on your face, serving customers. I think we have you in the wrong position. I think you should be in sales. And I was like, oh, I didn't know anything about sales, but I respected his name was Jim. I respected Jim. And so anyways, I was like, okay, so fast forward. They ended up moving me into the sales department. So I sold for the airlines for many years. And then from there, I got recruited into private aviation where I sold, you know, private jets, private services, et cetera, for many, many years. And then from there, I got recruited to become a president of a private jet company, which is what you just referred to. First one in history. So I'm like-

Jackie - 00:04:46:

Woohoo! I love that.

Stephanie - 00:04:48:

And then from there, I ended up getting recruited to become another private aviation company that was bigger. And that then allowed me to become, you know, I was part of the team that helped make them go public. So that allowed me to become a public, you know, an officer of a publicly held company. And now I serve on a board that is a private aviation company that is publicly held as well. So that's a little bit about my journey. I am a, I like to say a 40 year overnight success.

Jackie - 00:05:15:

I love that. Most overnight success is that, right?

Stephanie - 00:05:18:

That's right.

Jackie - 00:05:19:

It takes time.

Stephanie - 00:05:19:

It takes time. It really does. But it's been a great journey and I'm so grateful for it.

Jackie - 00:05:25:

Stephanie, that's amazing. Now, you mentioned being a military brat and growing up in diverse environments gave you a unique perspective. Talk about how your background influences your leadership style today.

Stephanie - 00:05:37:

Oh, I'm so incredibly grateful for my background because when you grew up a military child, right? And I can't speak for all kids because they all probably have different experiences. But my experience was that, you know, I grew up watching soldiers and we could all, you know, one could argue maybe we've got the best armed forces in the entire world. And so I grew up watching them with, you know, pants that are creased, shirts that are not wrinkled, haircut, like every hair is in place, right? You know, they're getting more done by 6 a.m., your average soldier, than most of us get done all day. And so I grew up looking and watching and seeing Jackie excellence. And that's probably the best thing that I can use, best word that I can use to describe it is I just saw excellence all around me. So that became the standard of how of what I saw, right? That and cause and effect, right? So every cause has an effect, good, bad or indifferent. There's always a ricochet, right? And probably the best example I could give for that is growing up on an active base. A lot of people may not realize this, that if, in fact, I got in trouble on the base, let's say I was speeding. I was a teenager and I was speeding on the base. Then the person who gets called into the commanding, you know, the commander's office is not me. It's my father in this case, right? So what it does is it also allows you very early on to realize that my actions have a consequence, but not just my consequence. It affects other people. And so I'm really incredibly grateful for those two lessons. Excellence is the standard and that anything you do, any decision you make will have a ripple effect, good, bad or indifferent on other folks as well. So those are two of the things that I would say I learned very quickly as a military child.

Jackie - 00:07:20:

For sure. That's amazing advice. Now, Stephanie, you've led multi-billion dollar sales teams and redefined brand positioning at major aviation companies. What mindset or strategies helped you thrive in these high stakes environments?

Stephanie - 00:07:37:

You know, I think I'm a perfect example of having making sure that you have diverse thought and perceptions and communication styles and expectations on a team. Because I come from aviation, but especially when I was in private aviation, because that's where my career really accelerated. Right. But, you know, private aviation, I would say it's it's it's it's an aspirational industry, meaning people want to either have enough money to fly privately or they want to be able to have enough money to buy a private jet. Right? So it's aspirational for everybody. And what that meant is that the industry, whether it's people flying in the back of the airplane or people flying the plane tended, you know, historically, when I was coming up through the ranks, it tended to be very male and specifically white male dominated. Right. And so the industry itself, though, it's been great to me. I've loved it. It's loved me back. I always joke and say that our industry suffers from PMS. We are pale, male and stale. Right.

Jackie - 00:08:35:

That's true.

Stephanie - 00:08:36:

And so the advantage that I had was the fact that I was different and that I did stand out and that I saw things differently. I just always saw things a different way. And that was my competitive advantage. And so now, you know, I'm always surprised how much of a conversation has taken place in our country about diversity and, you know, all that stuff and DEI. And the truth of the matter is there's no discussion even needed any longer about whether diverse teams outperform traditional teams or not. Because the information and the research and the data and the facts are clear that they do. But beyond that, one of the biggest business advantages that I say for any company is that when you get people who don't have the same background, same upbringing, same experience, same schooling. You know, when you get us all together in a room, you're going to pull out the most innovative product because we don't have the same, you know, cookie cutter type of philosophy and experiences. So for me, my biggest advantage is the fact that I'm different. That's the competitive advantage. So I lean very much into it because I'm going to be able to look at things if I'm trying to go into a new market, let's say, or I'm trying to, you know, change the branding so that we go from a commodity to a luxury. Anything that I'm doing, I'm looking at it from a different lens. And that is actually what's helped me be super successful.

Jackie - 00:09:59:

I think that's amazing. Now, Stephanie, right now, there's a lot of conversation about, do we need diverse voices in a room? Do we not? Is it too much? Is it not necessary? Tell us your perspective in leading. Amazing companies, the benefits of diverse voices in a room that are making decisions.

Stephanie - 00:10:22:

Yeah, it is. It is. It's not only is it needed, it's essential because that's where your competitive edge comes from, whether it's innovation, whether it's just thinking differently, whether it's how do I go to a different market? Right. And so increase my market share. All of that comes from people who have a different way of looking at it, because most people, when you're going to go into a new market or you're going to offer up a new product or whatever, they're just looking at data. And that's a great start. But somewhere along the line, you need the people who go, okay, I know what this says, but because of my upbringing or because of my cultural fluency in that particular area or whatever, they're going to give you nuances that their data is not going to be able to provide. So I'll give you a great example, because this is floating around in social media right now, and I think it's the best example, is Denzel Washington is being interviewed. And they were asking him, do you think you need diversity in, you know, in Hollywood? Right. Especially behind, you know, like from a director producer perspective. And I think he said it perfectly. He said, listen, Martin Scorsese made Goodfellas. Right. Or the other gentleman, I forgot his name. He created maybe Katzenberg created Schindler's List. Right. And so he said, now they're both great directors and they both could have actually done a really good job had they, you know, reversed it. Right. But the reason why, you know, Scorsese did really great with Goodfellas is because there was nuances that he knew because of his background and his culture that you really can't capture on TV. Right. Or in a film. And so then Denzel goes on to say, let's use, you know, African-Americans. If we're shooting a film about African-Americans, then I'm going to have a hard time explaining to a director who's not African-American what the smell of a pressing comb sounds like, smells like. Right. But if you if you're African-American, you know that nuance. Right. And so when I think of businesses and especially companies that I've led, you know, some of the things that I had to do, especially if I was, let's say, one of the private jet companies I was working for, we were trying to diversify the industry. And so through that, I was like, okay, well, the first thing we have to do is get some diversified marketing assets, because all the the photos that are out there don't show people of color in a private jet period unless they're a rapper or an athlete. And you and I both know we have there's so much more to us than just entertainment. Right. So I decided, okay, let's, you know, as a team, let's go ahead and create a new diversify. Let's do the industry's first diversified photo shoot. So wanted to make sure that the entire behind the camera and front of the camera, everybody was diversified from the models to the hairdressers to the makeup to wardrobe to, you know, everything was diversified. And the reason why that was is because when we set it, you know, to do the photo shoot, there were nuances, Jackie, that we could do that were almost whistles to those if you're because though it was a photo shoot that was going to be incorporated into all of our marketing materials. So it was a photo shoot for everybody. But there were nuances that we could add into the photo shoot that then signaled to people like us, you're welcome here. Right. So it could be something as simple as, oh, you have all the magazines spread out, but oh, there's an Essence Magazine or there's a, you know, Black Enterprise magazine. Right. There is nuances that you wouldn't pay attention to if you weren't part of the culture. But if you were part of the culture, you knew that it spoke to you. So to answer your question, whenever looking to grow a market, that's where diversity really comes into play, because you're looking at the nuances. The data is going to, the data is the data. And if everybody looks at the data one way, it's going to bring you one result. But really the diversity in the room, diversity of thought, culture, communication, you know, strategy, everything. Yes. And race and gender, et cetera, is going to add the nuance that the data doesn't actually provide. And that goes back to giving you that competitive advantage.

Jackie - 00:14:23:

Absolutely. Such good advice. Stephanie, let's talk about your book, Ally Leadership. And I have that right here, which I have enjoyed.

Stephanie - 00:14:32:

Oh, good. Thank you.

Jackie - 00:14:33:

It emphasizes leading people who are not like you.

Stephanie - 00:14:37:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:14:37:

Why do you think this message is so critical for leaders today?

Stephanie - 00:14:41:

It is. Thank you for the question, because I get really jazzed up about this. Because if you look at today's modern workforce, there's a lot of dynamics going on. People who are leading it, they actually get this. But there are six generations at work right now, which is the first time in history that has never happened. So that means that the workforce is ages 16 to 75. And we know Boomers think very differently than, let's say, Gen Z or the Zoomers, right? And everything in between. So six generations working. And that just means each generation has a different perspective, expectation, et cetera. So that's situation number one. Situation number two is we have women are the majority of the population. So we know we see things differently. We communicate differently. So that adds a new dimension to today's modern workforce. Then on top of it, you've got the ethnic demographics, right? So every single ethnic race is growing, non-ethnic race shrinking. So that changes the dynamics in the workplace. Of course, you have the LGBTQ plus community. You have people with different physical abilities. You've got different neurodiversities, right? So we've got a whole workforce that is incredibly different than each other. And as leaders, we're trying to figure out how to lead people who are not like each other and they're not like us, right? And so the reason why I wrote the book is I just explained I came from an industry where no one was looking like me. So I was very much around people who were not like me. And I was the leader, right? And so how do I lead this team that doesn't look like me, think like me? We don't have much in common, one would think. So how am I going to still make sure that everybody wins, right? So that's really what the book is about. It's not a DEI book because I believe that today's 21st century leader needs to know how to lead all God's children, every race, every creed, every gender. That's just the job itself. And so leaders, if they want to be remain relevant and continue to grow and thrive, they have to know how to lead people who are not like them because the likelihood of somebody being on the team that's not like you is almost, I can almost guarantee 100%. So you've got to figure out how to lead them, you know?

Jackie - 00:16:49:

That's exactly right. Now, Stephanie, what are some of the biggest challenges leaders face when managing diverse teams? And then what tips can you give for leading multi-generational, racially diverse, neurodiverse teams?

Stephanie - 00:17:03:

Yeah. So first of all, the biggest challenge, and I love this question because we don't usually talk about it. Everybody talks about making sure that you have a diverse team and all the good reasons why there is, you know, good reasons for having a diverse team. What we don't talk about is the fact that it is challenging to lead a diverse team because they don't think alike. They don't communicate alike. They come from different cultures, different backgrounds, et cetera. And so as a leader, you've got to get channel all of those differences into something good, right? So that's the challenge. Now, the tips that I have for leaders on how to do that. Is we talk about the book, the book's titled, Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. But ally is an acronym, Jackie, as you know. And so the acronym stands for Ask, Listen, Learn, You Take Action. So with that said, the tips that I have for people on how am I gonna lead all these people who are so different is you go back to the basics. See, I think a lot of times people overcomplicate things and that's when they start to get into trouble, right? Because they either come in assuming that they know about that group. And so that's problem number one. Or they're afraid to make a mistake and therefore get socially slaughtered, as I say, right? They do one little mishap and the world blows up because they seem insensitive. And then they're so afraid that they don't actually ask any questions, right? So they're either assuming or they're not asking, right? Both the disastrous. And so really what we have to do is to step back and realize I may have a way of doing things, but it's one way. It's not the only way, right? And so how am I gonna get the best out of this particular team and more importantly, out of this particular person? And so that means I must really start to truly ask questions, really listen, not with the intent of them saying something after them, but just really just to Listen. And then I've gotta learn, right? If I do the asking right and the listening right, then I'm by default going to learn. But then you can't stop there. Then the why part is you must take action. It's not good enough that you listen and you learn, like good for you, but now what are you gonna do with that information? You have to take action. And that's really what I wrote the book about is to tell people, hey, here's how I did it and got to the highest levels. And some areas I did great, some areas I fell on my face and did horribly. And I'm putting it all out there for people to read all the stories, all the good, bad, or indifferent in hopes that it becomes a tool for leaders because I know leadership is hard. And I know it's even getting harder, right? And the expectations are continuing to get even greater. And so this is a book, really, it's my love letter to leaders or people who want to become leaders to say, here's a tool that helped me get to the highest level. And I hope that it serves a purpose and helps you as well.

Jackie - 00:19:50:

I love that. And, you know, it's so important, Stephanie, a few things that you said. One, it's hard for leaders to lead because you're leading so many different types of people. You're leading in a hybrid environment or sometimes a remote environment. And what does that all mean? How do you do that successfully? And so this book has been so eye-opening and great to just give some of those tips and help walk a leader along that path. And I think that's fantastic.

Stephanie - 00:20:18:

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Jackie - 00:20:20:

Of course. The other thing is with regard to allyship, being able to ask and listen is often where we fall down. As leaders, we think we need to have the answers and we don't.

Stephanie - 00:20:32:

Right.

Jackie - 00:20:33:

And so sometimes we're listening to respond and not listening to understand.

Stephanie - 00:20:38:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:20:38:

And that's where we have to get to. And just, you also said vulnerability, right? And that being able to say, here's where I got it right. Here's where I made mistakes. And that's so important for leaders as well, because you can't expect something of your workforce that you're not modeling yourself. And so I just love that and wanted to call that out.

Stephanie - 00:20:59:

Thank you. And you know, what's really interesting is that people resonate when we, when people get to see our flaws, it actually allows them to trust us and build them, you know, pulls them closer. Right. And so it turns out the brain and I, and you, you've read the book. So I do hit brain science, you know, at the very beginning so that we can put some understanding as to why is it that we may feel a certain way towards people who are not like us. And a lot of times it's just your upbringing and how your brain's kind of been the habit that your brain's in or program that your brain's in. But I say all that to say that it turns out that the brain actually doesn't particularly care for perfection. Right. So if we, if the brain sees somebody that we deem it to be perfect, like perfect people, think, think about this. This is really catty on the female side. Right. But we see, we see people that, that just seems like it seems to be perfect. And the first thought is like, who she thinks she is. Like the brain kind of resists against perfection. And so one of the best things that leaders can do is actually show that fact that you're vulnerable, that you're not perfect, that you have some flaws, that you're, you know, you don't have all the answers. That is one of the easiest ways to build trust with someone. Right. You know, I always give the example of if I go to a restaurant and I say to the waiter, hey, how's the, you know, how's the chicken soup today? And the waiter's like, not that great. It's really not that good today. The chef's out. We got, you know, the sous chef's cooking. Right.

Jackie - 00:22:23:

Right.

Stephanie - 00:22:24:

The first thing you do is like, thank you. Like I trust this person. Right. Because they're giving me the honest opinion and they're letting me know the flaws of what's happening in that particular restaurant in that particular day. So don't get the chicken soup, get something else. Right.

Jackie - 00:22:38:

Right.

Stephanie - 00:22:38:

And that's just a simple example that we've all gone through, but it just goes to show that it's not that hard to actually build and establish trust with people. And especially people who are not like you, if you go in with the sincere, because I would say it's a head and heart issue. So if you go in with your heart of like, I don't know anything and everything about your particular, you know, who you are or your culture or your race or your upbringing or anything like that, I'm here to listen and learn. People get that. We know when it's performative or when it's authentic. Right. Especially if you're from a marginalized community, it's kind of like a superpower you've got that you can tell when someone's really sincerely wanting to get to know you versus they just want to check a box and be like, you know. Act like they want to know you or act like they're an ally and they're really not. And so it just becomes really essential that for leaders who are leading in today's modern workforce, that we really do understand that it's not as complicated as we've created it to be. If you just come in with the right heart stance and you ask and you listen and you learn, and then you figure out how you can actually add value by taking action, it's really that simple.

Jackie - 00:23:51:

Absolutely. Stephanie, you also emphasize respect as a cornerstone of effective leadership. How do you ensure respect is embedded in team dynamics, especially in diverse teams?

Stephanie - 00:24:04:

One of the easiest ways to do it is to actually let everybody voice their opinion. And this is where leaders start to fall short, right? Because usually their first thought is, I don't have time for everybody's opinion. But the truth is, if you have a team that has different thoughts and communication styles and expectations and perspectives and whatnot, you don't have time not to actually hear all the different thoughts and opinions about this particular product or project or what have you. Because if you create an environment of trust, which also incorporates respect, then when people start voicing how they may see things, someone else is going to see it differently. And then you've now opened the door for a nice, healthy confrontation or healthy disagreement. And so because you as a leader, all you care about is we get the best, right?

Jackie - 00:24:55:

Absolutely.

Stephanie - 00:24:56:

That's all we care about. And so if that means you've got to let your folks kind of hash it out back and forth because they have different viewpoints or how they see things differently, as long as respect is still the corner undercurrent of the discussion, let it rip, right? Like let them have that discussion. Let it go on. And, you know, and then you start to start asking targeted questions so you can kind of start to hone it in. But also more importantly, you can understand where people have their thoughts and agreements or disagreements because your job as the leader is to get out the best product or process or whatever and the best of people. But that doesn't happen by making everybody fall in line and being afraid to say that they disagree with the way that it's going or the strategy or whatever. Because the best, the healthiest teams, Jackie, are going to be the teams that are having a nice, healthy debate. And then you're just as the leader, you get to sit back and kind of watch this whole thing roar. And then you can say, okay, guys, so listen, I've heard that Jackie said this, blah, blah, blah. Stephanie, you may have disagreed because your stance was blah, blah, blah. Okay, I think there's some really good merit here. Now, how do we move forward? Because, at the end of the day, we've got to get blah, blah, blah accomplished. So where do you two think that we could get there? Right. And how do we get there? And so on and so forth. All of that really helps the team then go, okay, well, maybe if I mean, I do like the fact that Jackie's saying, you know, whatever. Right. And you're saying, okay, well, Steph, I think you bring up a good point. Well, what if we try it this way? When you do that, it's magical. Like, I just want leaders to know it is magical because the team feels safe enough to be able to you've established an environment as a leader that they feel safe enough to be able to voice their opinion. So that's the leader's job, right? Establish an environment. People feel safe, psychologically safe and seen and heard. If you do that, then all of a sudden, you know, now you've got them in a position where you can assure alignment, right, which is really important. You can rally the troops. Okay, I heard everybody. This is what we all agree could possibly work. Let's rally the troops to get behind it. And then you just navigate the whole thing. When are we getting there? Dates and deliverables, right?

Jackie - 00:27:01:

That's right. Absolutely.

Stephanie - 00:27:02:

And so that's really the key here is don't be afraid as leaders to let people actually have a discussion. And it may not be that they're all on the same page. Actually lean into the fact that you want that ability to have them have a healthy discussion so then you can get to the best conclusion. And then that allows you as a leader to be like, okay, we're putting the best product out there or the best process out there or the best person out there. That's a good thing. And so I think that, you know, my heart bleeds a little bit for leaders because I feel like they're so like, you know, they're just getting, you know, beat up around the head, beat up, slapped upside the head, didn't waste until Sunday. And so they start to like not make decisions or I shouldn't say that they make decisions, but they don't include everybody in the decision making process. Right. And that's that's something that's it's a disservice for both the company, for the people, for the customers. And certainly if you've got a board for the board as well.

Jackie - 00:27:59:

Absolutely. And you know, Stephanie, one of the things that I was thinking as you were sharing that is. Getting buy-in from your employees. Because how much, you know, it feels like it takes more time, but really how much time are you spending as a leader with, right, Jackie and Stephanie and Jackie saying, I just don't think Stephanie has the right idea. And now I'm having two separate conversations about this same thing. It really takes more time to do it that way. And you don't get that same buy-in. You don't get that same collaboration.

Stephanie - 00:28:35:

Exactly. One of the things that I used to do all the time and still do it, right, which is like, hey, guys, listen, here's the challenge that I'm faced with. So one, showing vulnerability as a leader, right? So the board is asking for this. And let's just say it's an increase. The board's asking for a 20% increase. And, you know, I think last year we did 15%, 20% might be a little bit of a jump considering what's all going in the marketplace. So I could really use y'all's help. So what I would love to have you guys do is, you know, here's the whiteboard. Let's have at it. Tell me how you think we should go about this. And then you just write, like, let them write down. I think we should do this. Right. And then again, they're going to have a nice, healthy debate. They're probably going to give you a million different ideas. You know, in nine, you know, most of them you can't do. Right. So but then at that point, you're like, okay, these are great ideas, guys. Obviously, we can't get 100 things accomplished. So listen, let's start to narrow this thing down. What where do we think that we'll get the biggest ROI? So what are like the top 10 things we could get done this year, in your opinion? Right. And you start letting them hash it out again. Right. And and then, okay, this sounds good. So now when could we get this done? Q1, Q2. Right. Start hashing it out again. And before you know it, yeah, it took you some it may have taken you two hours to get that whole thing on the whiteboard. But to your point, Jackie, I'd rather spin that walk out of here with like, here's an outline of how we think we can make this happen versus me having 20 different conversations with everybody. Right. And just, you know, getting to the same place. But it didn't take me two hours. It now took me, you know, 20 days. Right.

Jackie - 00:30:06:

Right. That's right.

Stephanie - 00:30:08:

Yeah.

Jackie - 00:30:08:

Absolutely.

Stephanie - 00:30:08:

Yeah.

Jackie - 00:30:09:

Absolutely. That's all right. And then you have a feeling that whether it's my idea, Stephanie, or your idea, I was heard.

Stephanie - 00:30:18:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:30:18:

And that's so important to employees.

Stephanie - 00:30:21:

Yeah, for sure.

Jackie - 00:30:23:

Stephanie, as someone who has broken barriers in corporate America, what advice do you give to underrepresented leaders aspiring to rise through the ranks as you have?

Stephanie - 00:30:33:

Yeah. Well, first of all, no matter what, you've got to have the result, right? So your performance has to be there. That's job one. Job two, though, is to be okay. And I call it gracefully bragging, right? Brag about what it is that your results have contributed, what you've done, what your results are. Because there's a myth that really is out there. And for all your listeners, it's not true, right? People think, I'm just going to put my head down and do the work and somebody's going to notice. Nobody's going to notice. Not one person is going to notice. And it's not because you're not noticeable or that you don't deserve to be noticed. It's just everybody's so busy right now, right? And people running around like their hair is on fire. And so they're not necessarily noticing every single thing you're doing. That's why it's up to you, leader or future leader, to bring it up in a graceful way so that you're proactively making sure people know what it is that you're accomplishing. And the reason why this is important is, you know, Carla Harris said something. It's not, this isn't my quote, but I quote it all the time, but it's her quote. And her quote was basically, you know, when you are, when decisions, major decisions are being made about your career, you won't be in the room, right? And people don't really realize that. It's like, you will not be in the room. When people are thinking about who do we assign that next project to? Or who do we move overseas to manage that team? Or, you know, who do we give this promotion to? Or whatever. When those discussions are being had, you're not in the room. So what that means is your brand has to be in the room to speak for you, right? And your brand only speaks, well, your brand is your brand. So your question that you have to ask yourself is every day, what are you doing to make sure that your brand represents you? Because no matter what company you work for, you're a brand within the brand, right? And so you want to make sure that is your work excellent? Can people count on you? You know, how do you convey or speak or articulate yourself in meetings? Are you the person that, you know, the naysayer, nothing could ever, no, we can't do that. No, we can't do that. Or are you this problem solver, right? Like, what is your personal brand? And every single day, you're working to develop that personal brand. So why that's important for, you know, leaders, and especially leaders that may be leaders of color, is don't let that, that can be a huge advantage for you, because by default, you stand out, but you've got to, as you know, I'm sure they know, you've got to have the results. You must make sure that your personal brand is a level of excellence and only you can define that. So however you define it, you define it. But every single day, what you're working towards is making sure that you're staying true and consistent to your brand. Because when decisions are being made that will impact your career, you won't be there, but your brand will be. And what do you want your brand to say?

Jackie - 00:33:25:

Absolutely. Now, let's pause for a second, Stephanie, because you said something important, but also something hard, especially for those of us who are culturally diverse, right? We don't often brag enough on ourselves and share what we're doing well and what we've accomplished. Can you give us a 15-second pep talk on how we begin to think about that and do that?

Stephanie - 00:33:50:

Yeah. Well, first of all, the fact that you're there in that company and, you know, whatever level you're at means that somebody saw enough in you to hire you and bring you in the company, right? If you have moved up and maybe you're in management or leadership, somebody saw enough in you and you have proven yourself through your work, your results, et cetera, that you should be there, right? Now, what tends to happen is the higher levels where people start kind of losing their confidence, right, and start thinking, okay, well, I could never be here or whatever. The truth is the fact that no matter where you are, you can 100% be there. Like, I have a passion, as you know, to get people prepared for the C-suite, right? And so, but how you do it is, again, keeping it super, super basic, right? So making sure your work's great, making sure that you, you know, that you articulate what it is that you're doing. And so the pep talk I would tell people is it doesn't get easier. And no one, don't count on anyone to do it but you. Now, the question is, how do you do it, right? Because it's a fine line between bragging and arrogant, you know, and gracefully bragging, right? So you want to make sure it's not like, oh, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Like, we don't want to do that. But we definitely want to make sure that you're always giving kudos to the team. And what that does is it signals to people who are over you that you know, A, you're a good team player. B, that you give credit where credit is due. You're not trying to take the credit. And C, that you actually can get a bunch of people together to accomplish a goal, right? So they can see some leadership potential in you. Or if you're already a leader, they may see that, hey, this person is not afraid of leading teams and people who are not like them. And so they could possibly oversee this or that. So everything that you're doing is you want to really just make sure that you're articulating how much of a solution person you are. Because here's the thing I want everybody to know. When you're in the C-suite, there's so much going on between me. You know, the C-suite, you're focused on four customers, right? The employees, the board, the customer who buys your stuff, right? And then, you know, the people who report to you. So you're focused on your customers, a lot of different people. And so the best thing you can do for your C-suite executives or even just your boss is you've got to be thinking, how do I make their life, their job easier? That's what you need to be thinking because they're the people that they will be noticing, right? Who makes my job easier? If you don't make the job easier and you simply make it more complicated, then your brand will have recognition, but it's not the one that you want, right? So you as an up and coming leader, you've got the goods, or else you would have been kicked out of that job anyway, right? So you've got the goods to be there. So now what you may not know is how to strategically use all of that, right? But how you use it, just to keep it super simple, is make sure that you're adding value to your boss. Make sure that you know what keeps your C-suite up at night. If you're too many layers down from the C-suite, let's say you work for a really big company, then read your annual report, look at the letter from the CEO, that's going to tell you what's keeping him or her up at night.

Jackie - 00:37:00:

Wow.

Stephanie - 00:37:01:

Yeah.

Jackie - 00:37:01:

Stephanie. That is great advice. Great advice.

Stephanie - 00:37:06:

Thank you.

Jackie - 00:37:08:

Let's talk about... Influence. So you've worked in industries that have been traditionally less diverse and still less diverse, right? What strategies do you use to build trust and influence in those spaces?

Stephanie - 00:37:21:

Yeah, right now, it's funny. Right now, I still am very much in this space, but certainly at different levels and different boards that I'm on. And so I can use my voice now because, you know, each level, different level, different level, right? So each level that you go up, you know, the influence tends to actually get bigger and bigger and bigger. And so for me, how I use my influence now is to, at the different levels, to actually, you know, be the person going, okay, but how does that impact? I'll give you a perfect example because this just recently happened, is I'm on a board within the industry and every industry is fighting for talent, right? We're trying to recruit talent or attract talent or retain talent, whatever. And so because of that, and because of all the reasons I just mentioned why diverse teams simply outperform, you know, traditional teams. Then, you know, now we start to look at, well, where can we actually grab more talent and build that talent pipeline? And so how I may use my influence is behind closed doors going, okay, but I see this strategy. But how does this impact women? Right. Or I see this strategy. So but what's the what's the strategy that we have to actually get more diversity up the line throughout the leadership? Well, it's great to get them in here, but what's the strategy to actually continue to grow and develop them so that, A, we keep them here. And two, we're able to develop that talent. So we're not just growing the current pipeline, but the leadership pipeline or pipeline, whatever. Right. So that's how for me personally, it's a lot of it's now because I am more behind the closed doors, like, you know, fighting the good fight. Right. Right. Just say, okay, how are we doing this? How are we doing that? Now, I will tell you, you know, it goes back to what I said earlier, is that you have to use your voice at every level that you're at, because one thing I always want to encourage people is sometimes they think, okay, well, when I get to this position, then I'm going to use my voice and everybody's going to listen to me. Ain't nobody going to listen to you. Right. You got to use your voice where you're at because different level, different devil. So the higher up you go, the voices are more intense. Right. So if you are a person who's afraid of using your voice now at this level, I'm actually going to tell you, don't go any higher because the higher conversations are much more lively, we'll say.

Jackie - 00:39:37:

Right.

Stephanie - 00:39:37:

And much more intense. Right. And so you've got to be able to have the stamina and have strong enough cap muscles to dig in. Right. As to what you stand, why you stand for this, et cetera. And what, you know, what it is that you believe and how you're trying to drive things forward. And so this isn't something, this isn't child's play, right? When you get to that level, this is not the time that now everybody's going to listen to you. No, they're going to listen to you when you have something of value to say. And you practice doing that at the level that you're at. So that by the time you get to those bigger levels, now you have even much more to say because you have a much greater impact. And quite frankly, there's much more at stake, right?

Jackie - 00:40:17:

Absolutely.

Stephanie - 00:40:18:

Yeah.

Jackie - 00:40:18:

Absolutely. Such great advice. Stephanie, as we discussed in our previous conversation, we both share a passion for amplifying diverse leadership voices. Tell me what's next for you and how do you envision continuing to make an impact in this space?

Stephanie - 00:40:35:

Oh, well, thank you for that. So we have a lot going on, right? Over here at my Stephanie Chung Associates. So what's really important to me, like I think I shared with you, my passion is really about helping the leaders of today be able to lead today's modern workforce. And so if they're so my focus is I, you know, my tagline is I'm your ally in leadership because I those people who are like, I want to get here. I don't know exactly what to do, but I know I've got the goods. That's my tribe, right? Because I'm like, okay, so I want people. I, you know, I have a newsletter that I do that just is constantly every week. We're talking about the science behind leadership and success and really pulling in the science of, you know, the brain and neuroscience and all that stuff so that people can have that competitive advantage. So for me, I am right now, we have a university that has come to me because they'd like to do a an actual certification on, you know, leading people who are not like you. So our team is focused on that. We have, gosh, what else? We have some TV stuff going on that just kind of fell into our lap. So that is that I can't even make that one up. That one just happened. So we're like, all.

Jackie - 00:41:43:

Right.

Stephanie - 00:41:43:

Hold on. We got a lot on our plate right now. Right. But I will come back to you on that. And so I'm really excited, Jackie, to be honest with you. The book has really opened up. There's a need, right? I'll just put it this way. There's a need. And so I'm on the speaking circuit talking to every leader. I speak on leadership, sales, and female power. So I'm usually talking at conferences or companies on those three subjects. But not just about, you know, trust and communication, though that's important. But I spend a lot of time talking about how does the brain actually interact with this whole thing? So when you're communicating, that's great. But how do you have conversational intelligence? How do you have higher levels of conversation that connect? Because that's going to be your secret sauce. The more you continue to grow and develop to try to get to the C-suite, right? So everything that I'm doing, speaking, books, there will be more books coming. Right now, we're just focused on the educational program, the certification program, because I'm only one person. So how do we continue to get more people, you know, trained and equipped and ready to be able to lead in this new era, in this new way? And I'm, you know, really helping to do my part. I don't want to be that person who's complaining like, I'm going to be like, oh, let me roll up my sleeves and let me do what I do and get in there and really help people be able to be successful in this thing called leadership, so.

Jackie - 00:43:00:

I love that. Stephanie, you have an incredible platform with over 240,000 followers.

Stephanie - 00:43:08:

Is that what we have now with my team?

Jackie - 00:43:09:

Yeah, I think so.

Stephanie - 00:43:10:

That's not enough. I'm like, oh, I got so much time, right?

Jackie - 00:43:14:

That's amazing. How do you leverage your influence to promote messages of inclusivity and growth?

Stephanie - 00:43:20:

Yeah. So everything that we do, and if you look at any of my socials, there's a pretty common theme, right? And I always tell people I'm not for everybody. I am not for everybody. Because even with this book, I'm like, I'm coming in hot, right? Nobody is safe. We're talking because it's all about people who are not like each other. And so I think and really love like the way that I grew up, Jackie, because I grew up on military bases, everybody around me, we were like all different cultures and races. And, you know, you live in different countries and just all that stuff. Right. And so that's only thing I knew. And listen, I'm a black lady with a Chinese last name. I mean, so I'm living this too. Right. But but, you know, at the end of the day. Yes, I do have a big platform. We are. That's just the beginning because of all the stuff that we've got going on the pipeline. It's just going to get bigger. But the reason why I am focused on it is not so much because of the bigness of the platform. Listen, I've reached the levels that I was shooting for. Right. But the bigger the bigger influence, the bigger influence. Right. I can have a bigger impact. I can have a global impact. And at the end of the day, I really do believe that, you know, for me, I'm walking in my purpose. Right. I think that we were all wonderfully made. You know, we're all God's biggest asset. Right. And that, you know, the way that I see leadership is that it's such a powerful thing. It's not about the title and the money, though. That's good. It's really all about the significance that you can have, the footprint that you leave, the legacy that you leave. You know, we all remember the leader that or the teacher. Right. We remember the person who stood out that really had an impact. My question for leaders is, why can't that be you? Right. You're going to leave a message and an impact. But is it a good message or is it a bad message? Right. And that's totally up to you. And I do appreciate that sometimes people don't know how to do it. Right. Because you kind of get flung into leadership and there's not really, you know, lots of step by step by step. And then sometimes what's even worse is you get flung into leadership and there's no training. Right. And those leaders tend to hurt people more than help people just because they don't know what they're doing either. So for me, I'm really focused on using the platform, growing the platform so that I can actually have a hand in people being really, really great, awesome leaders that people are knocking down doors to work for.

Jackie - 00:45:43:

I love that. That's the type

Stephanie - 00:45:44:

of leadership that I want to help develop. And that's, you know, people who follow me and stuff, because I give it to you straight. So I would say I'm coming in hot, but I'm, I'm not warm and cuddly. Right?

Jackie - 00:45:53:

Right. You're going to tell the truth. And I love that.

Stephanie - 00:45:56:

You know, yep.

Jackie - 00:45:57:

You know, and it's so important because we are taught how to be individual contributors, right. And how to do our job as individuals. We're, we're taught that very specifically. But then you're a great individual contributor and you get promoted into leadership. And there's not a pull aside to teach you how to be a good leader. So I love that.

Stephanie - 00:46:19:

I was disastrous. When I first, because I was like top in sales. This is like a horrible thing. And it happens to many salespeople. You're number one in sales and they go, great, let's have you take over the team, right? And at the beginning, I was a disaster. I was leaving dead bodies all over the place because I was like, do it this way. Why are we still talking about this? Because as an individual contributor, you just don't have to think about all the other nuances. I don't have to think about what's your learning style. I don't have to think about how should I communicate with you versus you versus you. I don't think about that. I'm an individual contributor, right? I only have to think about my results, right? So where I feel a lot of leaders, that first year is tough for people who've come from, you know, they were super successful in one area and now all of a sudden they're leading and you usually watch them blow up in flames, just implode because, and then that's really sad because they get burnt out. The team's burnt out. Like it's just, it's a disaster. So my thing is more along the lines of leadership can be fun. Like I love leadership now. I'm so proud of, I always said to my kids, I've led a gazillion people out there. And so I'm always so proud of their success. And when they're leading teams or leading companies or whatever, I'm just like a proud mama, right? But I had to learn the hard way. And that's what I talk about in the book too, different areas that I just flocked. Like I just didn't land the plane correctly, right? And so that's when you have to humble yourself. You have to be really vulnerable. You have to be really introspective to realize like, okay, my style is not helpful for this person. This is just not how they learn. And so it's not for them to adjust to me, which is how most leaders think. It's for me, I'm the leader. It's for me to adjust to them so that I can understand how do I pull out their talent and their gifting. That's my job. It's not their job to everybody start to function how Stephanie functioned. That's not how this works, right? And so leadership is hard because if you're really good at it, you're really paying attention to each individual person because there's somebody's mother, somebody's sister, somebody's best friend, somebody's wife. We keep saying, bring your whole self to work. Well, that's who she is, right? And I can't just think of her as just the employee who produces for me. I've got to also be mindful of, you know what, maybe she's got something going on at home and all that stuff. And so that may impact how she produces, when she produces. Maybe she's not having the best of the best week, right? And so though I'm not going to get into all her personal details unless she brings that to me. But I have to be mindful that she is a whole person, right? And so with that, I have to figure out, well, what's her gifts and her talents? And how do I communicate? How do I change my communication in such a way that I can pull out the best in her so that she wins? Because that's my job as a leader. I've got to develop people and I've got to make sure that I have them be winnable. But I have to understand what winning means to them. And that's why you ask, you listen, you learn, and you take action.

Jackie - 00:49:09:

Absolutely. Stephanie, finally, what's one key takeaway that you hope listeners remember after this conversation?

Stephanie - 00:49:17:

It's not as hard as it seems, right? Like, I think we've overcomplicated this whole thing. What you learn as a five-year-old in kindergarten still applies now, right? So please and thank you. And, you know, when we think about little kids, the thing that we love and yet can kind of drive us a little crazy is they ask too many questions.

Jackie - 00:49:34:

Yeah, that's right.

Stephanie - 00:49:35:

Why is that? Why is that? Why are you just like, oh, my God, will you write a book? You know, right? But that kind of philosophy will serve us well as leaders, is just be inquisitive and be a student and to know that if you make a mistake, and you will, it's okay. Unless you're a brain surgeon, nobody probably died in the process, right? So just admit that it's a mistake, ask for forgiveness, and move on, right? Don't let it define you. It's a bump in the road, and you've got plenty more bumps to go, right? So I always like people, you know, I personally, when I fail and I do often, I love it because I know it's truly how I grow the fastest. And so I don't want people to be afraid of failure. I don't want people to be afraid of doing something new. I want people to lean into it and embrace it because the quicker you can fail, get the lesson, the quicker you can go, okay, I got that, right? And you move to that next level. And so you don't want to waste failures or waste mistakes. Mistakes, embrace them, but don't be afraid of them. So we all got flaws, embrace it and keep it moving.

Jackie - 00:50:36:

I love that. Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your powerful insights on leadership and diversity and allyship. Your journey and your expertise are really inspiring. And I know our audience will take away some valuable lessons from this conversation.

Stephanie - 00:50:52:

Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to get to know your tribe. So thank you so much, Jackie, for having me.

Jackie - 00:50:58:

Absolutely. And for our listeners, don't forget to... Find Stephanie's book, Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. And until next time, keep being champions for each other because real change starts with us. Stephanie, thank you so much for being here. This has been so great.

Stephanie - 00:51:16:

Thank you, Jackie. Bye now.

Jackie - 00:51:17:

Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. This episode is produced by Walk West. If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with someone who inspires you and leave us a review to help others discover the show. Follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn to join our growing community of change makers. Until next time, keep pushing boundaries and building a world where everyone belongs. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.