The Power of Vulnerability in Leadership with Greg Morley

Jackie Ferguson: [00:00:00] How do we build workplace cultures where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued without walking on eggshells? Greg Morley has spent decades answering that question in boardrooms around the globe. From the sushi launch method to quiet voices in the room, this episode explores real strategies for real connection.

Welcome to Diversity Beyond the Checkbox, the podcast where bold ideas meet inspiring stories brought to you by the diversity movement. I'm Jackie Ferguson, author, investor, business leader, and human rights advocate Each. Episode, I sit down with trailblazers, game changers, and boundary pushers to uncover their journeys, insights, and strategies for success.

Whether it's innovation, inclusion, or personal growth, we are here to ignite meaningful conversations that empower and inspire. Thank you for joining me today. Let's get started.[00:01:00] 

Today's guest is Greg Morley, global HR Executive, DEI, strategist and author of. On belonging and the keys to inclusion and connection. Greg has led people and culture initiatives at Disney, Hasboro and Louis Vuitton, Moe Hennessy, using a unique blend of empathy, storytelling, and strategic insight to build high performing inclusive teams.

His journey spans continents from California to Shanghai. And cultures including a pivotal career moment in Hong Kong that reshaped his approach to leadership. In this conversation, Greg and I talk about why inclusion often fails to take root, what most companies misunderstand about belonging and how to build bonds that last beyond the bottom line.

Whether you're an executive, leading a team, or an individual contributor trying to be part of the solution. This episode offers practical tools, mindset shifts, and a. [00:02:00] Fresh take on workplace connection. Greg, thank you for being on the show. I'm so excited to have you and talk to you today. 

Greg Morley: Well, thank you Jackie, and, uh, I've been so excited to look forward to this conversation and, uh, we've been planning this for a while, so thank you for inviting me.

Jackie Ferguson: Yes. Well, let's jump into it. Greg, you started your career in sales and you did some other jobs as well. Tell us a little bit about your path to becoming a global HR and inclusion leader at companies like LVMH and Disney. 

Greg Morley: So, um, you know, one of the things I've reflected on recently that I think was very important in my HR career was actually some of the jobs that I did very early on and, you know, when I was, uh, in high school and in college and university, I worked jobs like.

Um, parking cars. I worked in a warehouse, uh, pulling orders. I [00:03:00] worked, uh, as a busboy a couple of summers, and I think that having those experiences were actually quite useful in an HR career because, you know, you're really trying to help people succeed. And understanding the, the difficulty of work is important when, especially when you're in a C-suite job, that you can still sort of connect yourself.

To the, the majority of employees who are doing, doing the, the hard work that, that makes a company successful. Uh, eventually I was hired by ge. I worked in a call center, which I would recommend to anybody coming out of school, work in a call center for a couple of years, and you will learn how to communicate with people.

Uh, it, uh, I had a lot of sleepless nights thinking like, oh my gosh, what am I doing? What am I doing? But it was a great way to learn communication skills and learn, um, you know, conflict resolution skills, which ultimately was helpful in HR career as well. And, um, I then went into sales and I [00:04:00] worked in sales for a number of years.

I was actually selling light bulbs. To supermarkets, big supermarket accounts with, uh, ge. And I was very fortunate to have a boss at the time. Um, and he opened my eyes to many things. But I think one of the things I am most grateful for him is that he opened my eyes to the power of great coaches and ta and he at that time said, Hey, you know, uh, at some point I think you'd be great in hr.

I had no idea what HR even was at that point, so I was still, uh, you know, out hustling light bulbs. And um, uh, one thing led to another and I left ge. I went to work for Disney, and again, I had a leader. I was working in operations and he asked me if I would be interested in an HR career and. Again, I said, I don't know what that means, but you know, you have confidence in me.

And my old boss said that. So I ended up getting into HR and a entry level HR job, and [00:05:00] quickly realized I was not equipped to do the job well because I didn't have the technical, uh, skills to do the job. I, I had the, I think the, the emotional competence to do the job, but I didn't have the technical skills.

So I. Had just finished an MBAI went back and got a master's in hr and I think that really created a foundation for me to ultimately be successful in the career and, and in different companies like ge, Hasbro, Disney, and ultimately LVMH. 

Jackie Ferguson: Wow. That's amazing. You know, I. Caught one thing that's really interesting that you had the emotional skills to be able to do the job, but not the technical skills.

And as a leader myself, I know that it's the emotional piece that you can't teach. You've gotta either have that for that role or not. The technical skills can be taught and it's clear that, that you learned those and and excelled in that, and that's fantastic. Greg, you've lived all over the world, [00:06:00] France, Hong Kong, California.

How has that global perspective shaped your understanding of connection and inclusion? 

Greg Morley: It's, it, you know, it's a great, uh, thing to reflect on what we're talking about in terms of emotional competency, emotional capability. I think part of, you know, I was fortunate to be raised by parents who had lived overseas and had traveled and always encouraged us to, to learn and go out and challenged ourselves and fail and pick ourselves up.

They were always there for us, and I think having those experiences early in life. Did create a certain emotional, or it's kind of psychological resilience that allowed me to take chances in my career and, and live in different places around the world and live in different places around the us which is a world in of it.

A world in and of itself. Uh, and that helped me to appreciate difference. [00:07:00] Uh, and ultimately I think was one of the, the things that spurred me into building myself as a diversity and inclusion professional because I was really just curious about people and they had done so much traveling for work and personally, and, you know, on top of that I saw that the world is not an equal and fair place.

And so one of the things that I was, uh oh, I was blessed with was the ability to go out and try to. Help other people create careers that may otherwise have not been able for them to be able to, to have realized. 

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Greg, you've said a moment in Hong Kong with your former boss, Christine changed how you lead.

Tell us what happened and what did that experience teach you? 

Greg Morley: You know, again, uh, I was very blessed over my career to have worked with some great people and, um, Christine is still a very good friend, very dear friend of mine, [00:08:00] Christine's from Hong Kong, a Hong Kong woman born in Hong Kong. Uh, and what she and I realized in our career, in our working relationship as we were perfect compliments for each other, I was very sort of fluent in Disney and I understand the company I'd worked in different locations.

She was very fluent in the culture of Hong Kong and, and how people, uh, would think and be successful. And I, I remember one time we had a big town hall and, uh, everything was in two languages, so the employees were asking questions in Cantonese and I was answering them after a translation back in English, and then it was being translated back in Cantonese.

My way of a answering the questions were, was very practical. So somebody would say like, you know, why are we not being paid more money? As a very simple example. And so I would say like, well, the data shows and da, da, da would have a very practical answer. And, and what I learned from her was that, you [00:09:00] know, the questions I, that we were being asked were not necessarily what was on people's minds.

Um, and this kind of cultural nuance that is actually for Americans, not so much. It's not so much of our daily life. Cultural nuances is not as strong in the us Uh, Americans kind of say what they mean, they mean what they say other places around the world. Language is less direct and I learned that, um, from her.

In these situations of talking to say, you know, 500 housekeepers who were asking questions, uh, to understand and really listen to what people were asking, and really try to diagnose and understand what was behind the question. Uh, and I think that that's made me, it, it's spurred my interest in becoming more culturally confident and it has really made me spend a lot of time studying cultural [00:10:00] competency.

Uh. Certifying myself on different cultural competency tools, but trying to be somebody who is a, a bridge between cultures and a bridge between, uh, difference. 

Jackie Ferguson: That's amazing. You know, and, and Greg, it's so true because when you think about inclusion, a lot of times you think from your own lens, right? If you're American, you're thinking from the American lens.

Really, there's so much nuance in one culture to the other. And because our business is so global now, in part because of technology and being able to video call anywhere in the world, right? So you can do business wherever. What we're not pulled aside and taught are the nuances between. One culture and the other.

And what I've found is America's kind of in the middle and there are some cultures [00:11:00] that are even more direct than we are. And then there's other cultures that have more of a hierarchical, um, softer approach. And you have to understand that as you're working within those cultures, and it's, it's so important too.

To understand and become competent in, uh, as you're working across the globe. 

Greg Morley: Yeah, and that's a, this is one of the key, uh, I think key enablers of inclusion, which is when you're working in a, in a workforce that's multicultural or multi-ethnic or multiracial or multi anything, is really trying to stand in the shoes of the people you're working with or you're, that you're trying to help be successful.

You know, that's, that's something that I learned in that situation in Hong Kong, which is, you know, we, we always said like, human beings are human beings to a point. But you know, everybody has their own experience, their own lived [00:12:00] experience, their own reality, their own background, their own success, their own trauma.

And I think if you don't. Understand that and appreciate that you're not, we're not able as leaders to get the best out of people. You know, there, there's a continuum of understanding difference to the point of actually leveraging difference. And my, my hope and what I try to, to preach and impart on others is not just to understand and, and, and.

Accept and tolerate, but it's actually to leverage so that in a multi, you know, in a, in a diverse team, that the data shows diverse teams that are well led and are inclusive do better. And so the point of really diversity and inclusion in organization should be to. The benefit of the individuals in the organization and when done well, when done well, it pro it's proven that that's a more, more [00:13:00] profitable way to run a business.

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Now, Greg, why do so many organizations still struggle to create a real sense of belonging? Even after years of investing in DEI. 

Greg Morley: I st I still think that, or I still see, I would say that, uh, there's still a great deal, deal of fear and leadership, um, to do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, and frankly, oftentimes to commit fully.

So. There, there's an very instructive period of time that we're in now where a lot of companies are, you know, reevaluating their investments in diversity and inclusion, trying to understand are they gonna go, you know, continue to do what they were doing or not. And you know, they're probably companies in three categories.

Those companies that are still all in, they still understand the business case. They know that it's true to their values. Companies like Marriott, which came out [00:14:00] very recently and, and, and reinforced that being diverse and inclusive is who we are. It's not a matter of, you know, it's not a program. Then, you know, there are companies I think on the other end that probably jumped on because it was the thing to do at the time and it's, it's easy for those companies, frankly, to.

To step back and pull back. And then there's a lot of companies in the middle that are legitimately struggling with what to do, how to, how to remain, uh, committed to the, to, to being an inclusive and diverse company. And I think that my, my view is that leaders of a lot of companies and in the leaders in the middle, uh, have fear, uh, of, you know, rather than being encouraged to do the right thing, fear of doing the wrong thing, and that often.

That that layers down in a organization. I saw some data yesterday that was very powerful. There is a big gap when you look at how senior leaders look at an organization in [00:15:00] terms of its inclu, inclusivity and diversity, and even how the next level of managers look at it. The reality is, is that senior leaders set the strategy, they set the tone, they set the values, but it's the managers that are leading.

Managers have the most influence on an organization. So this, this gap between senior management and managers is very important because managers have to feel like being, building inclusion, building diverse teams is gonna be supported by senior management and also is gonna make their life ultimately easier in managing their, their teams.

And I think that there's a disconnect, some that sometimes in that, uh, in that dynamic. 

Jackie Ferguson: That's so interesting, right? Because those middle managers are the ones that are interacting with employees on a day-to-day basis. The senior leaders. Really only interact with those middle managers, right? Yeah. And so [00:16:00] that's, that's very interesting.

Greg Morley: I, I had a, I worked with a guy at, uh, LVMH and he was a great leader. Uh, he was very much focused on the, the, the values of the organization and making sure it was a values run organization. And he asked me a question one time when he was traveling in Asia and he had visited, we were, I think we were in Singapore, and he expressed his frustration that.

Um, he didn't feel like managers were willing to take risks and willing to fail. And why was that? And I said, you know, one of the things that you need to do as a leader, and this is one of the things that I diagnosed in the book I wrote, is that the leadership voice is so important and the leadership voice in.

Explaining examples of when they did something that maybe was a failure, and so that was what I encouraged him to do. I said, you should tell an example of where you failed and how that eventually paid off for you, because [00:17:00] managers generally don't want to report up things that don't work. Managers are trying to.

Be successful. They wanna be the senior manager, right? They want, they wanna be successful in their careers. They want to provide for their families. They wanna do a good job. And so, back to why I think oftentimes there's a, there's a challenge in the culture is that work isn't always easy. It can be risky, right?

You're, you can, you can be upsetting people, maybe you don't understand what exactly how to do it, right? Um, and so in an avoidance, you sort of stay where you are. Um, and, and again, this, this manager, when he told this story of I. You know, a ad campaign that he said he was gonna do and it didn't work. And then, you know, what happened from that?

It was very encouraging to people, the managers, to understand in this organization there is a tolerance for try and fail. And I think that that worked for building our culture in Asia, uh uh, and [00:18:00] allowed for more inclusive, diverse workplace, 

Jackie Ferguson: you know, and that's such a good point, Greg, because. One of the, when we think about innovation, one of the things that is part of innovation is trying and failing and figuring it out.

But employees won't feel empowered to do that if they don't see that modeled by their managers. 

Greg Morley: Exactly. And so 

Jackie Ferguson: That's exactly right. You don't get to. Innovation and you know, new ways of, of doing things. New practices, new processes, without trying something. And it's a little weird, a little wonky, right?

And you get that fixed. I think that's so right. But you mentioned Greg, your book, and the book is called Bond Belonging and the Keys to Inclusion and Connection, which I am lucky enough to have a copy of here. I love it. It's fantastic. So in your book, Greg, you share your bond method. Tell us a little bit about that and how leaders can [00:19:00] start applying it right away.

Greg Morley: Um, so I had, uh, thank you for the comment on the book and I, uh, I'm very proud of the, I. Book, it's my first one. I learned a lot writing a book and, uh, uh, it was a real adventure and, and actually talking about the book has been an adventure as well. So I, um, through the stories that I share of my own successes and failures in the space of inclusion and belonging, uh, the stories that I share of others who inc.

Who either were interviewed in the book or whose stories are represented there. I determined six things that I think are very critical to creating an inclusive workplace and a sense of belonging in the workplace. And I mentioned one of them already, which is leadership model. Role modeling is incredibly important and without the most senior leader in the organization, being that person who sets the tone, it's very difficult.

To create sustainable change in an organization. And that's not just about [00:20:00] inclusion, that's about a lot of things. Um, but everybody in the organization ultimately has a leadership role. So you could be leading a team of five people, you could be just a project manager yourself. Um, we all play leadership roles.

Everybody's kind of watching us. We're on stage. All the time. So those things I think, are important. I, I talked earlier about standing in the shoes of other people. This is really critical. So we all come hardwired with our biases on conscious and unconscious with our own experiences. And I've experienced this living around the world is, you know, my experience first time I was working in France was I could walk into a, a.

Meeting room in, in Paris and no one knows that I'm not French, right? They continue on in French and maybe I'm struggling with the language. Um, and that was a disadvantage for me because I [00:21:00] started to apply my own kind of, I. American methodology to the way businesses were run and the culture's different, meeting culture's different, the way people are included is different.

So I really had to, after failing a few times, step back and say, okay, I really need to understand this culture from that perspective to really understand it from a French perspective. Now it's a little bit easier in Hong Kong because nobody's going to assume that I'm Chinese, but I have the same sense of.

You're in a meeting. A meeting feels like a meeting. It starts at eight, it ends at nine. You have an agenda. But really trying to stand in the shoes of other people and understand what is it that they're thinking? How are they thinking about things? What are they trying to get out of, whether it's a meeting or a, or an interaction.

And we used to have one trick to, uh, employee communication in, in Hong Kong. Uh, and that was. We would write employee communication, and it was normally about [00:22:00] maybe a benefit or a, an event we were doing. And it would be translated and then I would ask them to translate it back into English to get a sense of, okay, I'm using words.

You are translating them into other, into your local language, but what do they really mean when you translate them? And that's. That's a way that I tried to stand in the shoes of the people I was working with to understand even the language we were using. Is it inclusive? Does it speak to people in their heart?

Does it make them feel like they're part of this company? Which I. When I was starting the Disney working in the Disney theme parks in Hong Kong and Shanghai, people had never worked for Disney before. So it wasn't like they had had a walk down Main Street experience when they were a kid. So we were trying to really make them feel like they belonged there, but with the language we were using, uh, needed to be important.

So standing in people's shoes is really important. I would say just the, uh, the, the last one I would talk about is just. Being a [00:23:00] learner and constantly trying to understand by reading, by speaking to people, by interacting with people, by talking to, you know, simple things like get in an Uber, talk to the driver.

You, you learn a lot from people in their life experience. I think that makes us all better, managers and leaders, uh, when we understand other people, because it's very easy these days to live in a bubble. 

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. And I love that you said. Speak. Does it speak to people in their heart? Right? What a way to en engender loyalty, right?

When, when you can align values or mission with someone in the heart, right? You get that loyalty, you get that best effort every day, and I think that's something that a lot of leaders. Don't think about at all, and maybe we should do that [00:24:00] more. Maybe we should do that more. Yeah, I think 

Greg Morley: that it's a great point.

And, and you know, people, I I always say that when you are a manager, your job should be to make sure that the workplace is the safe place. That the workplace is the place where the people who you are responsible for, for the eight hours or 10 hours, or 15 hours, or however long they're there. That they are their best person, their best self.

At that point, I, I cannot, you know, dictate what happens to them once they leave work, right? They have family, they have kids, they have pay parents, they have all manner of issues in their lives. But if they can come to work and they feel like, okay, I belong here. My manager cares for me, my manager and, and care doesn't always mean I.

My manager's a nice person. My, it means my manager's looking out for me, my manager's honest with me. My manager gives me feedback. My manager connects me [00:25:00] with other people in the company so that when I come here, I feel like, wow, I, this is my best work. And I, you know, I had an experience when I was in, in Asia with a woman who.

Was the HR director in Korea, and this was very much a situation we had where she had a, you know, very burdened life at home. She was taking care of elder parents, she was taking care of her husband's elder parents. She had a young son, uh, and she was, there was a lot of pressure on her, in fact, to even have a career.

So it was my responsibility and the responsibility of others that work with her to make sure that when she came, she could feel like I can do my best work here. I can be the star that I am in, in this space. And she was, you know, she continued to be a star and continues to this day because she's worked in environments that were allowing her to excel.

Jackie Ferguson: That's amazing and so important. Greg, you've talked about the importance of listening to the [00:26:00] quiet voices in the room. Tell us why do those voices matter and how can we amplify them? 

Greg Morley: Um, this was another thing I learned in Hong Kong. So, um, you know, when I went to Hong Kong, I used to hear from my American colleagues, gosh, the people in Hong Kong, they never speak up, do they?

Do they have any ideas? Are they innovative people? And I don't know. I don't know. I haven't worked with them, but, um, the quiet voices doesn't necessarily mean people are quiet. It just means that they don't have the, may not have the opportunity to speak. I. I went to an innovation conference, uh, several months ago, and I was at a table with a number of innovation heads of different big companies, innovation heads, and the facilitator said, you know, all of you innovation heads and me the diversity person, what is it that's holding companies from, we're truly innovating [00:27:00] and.

What was quite heartening to me as a professional in the space was the guy that was facilitating the table, he looked at me and he said, it's not an issue of innovation. It's an innovation of equity in teams, and it's an inno, it's an, it's an issue that we build these very diverse project teams from all over the world, and we have to create the situation where everybody around the table has equal voice and equal power.

Um, and that's a matter of, you know, oftentimes a matter of facilitation, it's a matter of support. Uh, sometimes it's a matter of using things like technology, like giving people different ways to ask questions, to project manage, because as sure as it's difficult sometimes for me in a, in a forum of people who are maybe more direct, more loud, take up more space.

Imagine what it's like for somebody who speaks English as a second or third language. [00:28:00] Um, it doesn't make that person any less intelligent. It just makes that person less able to involve themselves in conversation and less able for myself as the manager or the company that I'm working for, to get the great ideas out of that person.

So managers who are working across cultures have to. Create forums, platforms, technology that gives everybody a chance to be not the quiet person in the room anymore. 

Jackie Ferguson: I love that. And that's so important as a former quiet person in the room. Right? It's so important because a lot of times it's the quiet people that understand risk better, that understand process because they're not the ones out in front that are the, the salespeople.

Or the champions that are saying, this is great, right? They're the ones that are gonna say, well, what if this happens, or, let's explore this, or, here are [00:29:00] some, some things that you might not be seeing. And so that's so important and all part of innovation. I think that it's important, Greg, as you alluded to, that people feel.

A sense of, of safety and comfort to be able to share not only in that room at that moment, but share in other ways. Maybe it's through an email afterwards or a follow-up conversation, um, one-on-one where you can get some of those, those incredible ideas. But it's important to give space 

Greg Morley: and it might, it might take time to build up to, you know, one thing I, I learned.

When we're growing up in our American culture, you sort of, you, you, you trust people until they give you a reason to not trust you. Right? You start with a full bank account. Many cultures, you start with zero and you build up. And so trust is something that when you're working in multicultural teams, as you, as you said, you know, cultures are [00:30:00] different and you have to build trust in one of the things.

I think we, we, we have to do managing across cultures. Man, managing across difference is to give people the opportunity to grow and build trust with the people they're working with. And again, that can, that can come in the form of technology, even giving people the opportunity potentially to ask questions and, and those questions to be an anonymized, so this was one of the things in, in, in LVMH we did, we used to have, um, we would have town halls.

And no one would ask questions because they didn't wanna be the person waving, you know, Hey, I'm, hey, Mr. Big senior manager, let me challenge you. Which worked against the company in two ways. One was the employee didn't feel bought in or a sense of belonging, and the senior managers weren't getting great questions.

They weren't actually seeing the, you know, like the manager asked me, why aren't people taking risks? So we developed this process called [00:31:00] No Taboo. And no taboo meant you could ask any question, but we did it on a, on a Slido platform so people could put in a question. We would moderate the questions, um, moderate in a, I mean, like we would read the questions as they came in, but um, but they didn't come necessarily from employee X or employee Y.

Um, and that's the way it started. Now, eventually, we didn't need Slido anymore because people understood that. If a question were was, was asked, it would be answered. And that, uh, there was a, there was no repercussion for the questioner. In fact, there was a, there was a hope that you would have more of that, and as people built up that, that muscle, it became part of the culture.

Jackie Ferguson: Love that. That's so great. Greg. Let's talk about the sushi lunch method and how that helps build connection across differences. 

Greg Morley: I, I love telling [00:32:00] this story because it was such a, such a important moment in my own coming to terms with difference. Um, I worked with a gentleman who reported to me. He was in Singapore.

I was in Hong Kong and I didn't, I had never met him. I only met him like you and I have met on, on Zoom. So we had a lunch at a sushi restaurant in Hong Kong, and I was sitting in the sushi restaurant. I got there early and he came into the restaurant, and course I recognized his face, but I didn't recognize the rest of him.

He was walking with a very severe limp. And so immediately in my mind I'm thinking, okay, you know, what am I gonna say? Do? How am I gonna address it? What do I ignore it? All those kinds of things. And you know, during the period of the lunchtime, I moved through this kind of continuum of trying to understand myself.

Then trying to be respectful of him, but then ultimately trying to figure out how we make something, [00:33:00] you know, very good out of a situation that maybe is not a good situation. So I started into my mind thinking, I won't say anything because it's embarrassing. It could be embarrassing to him. So meanwhile, we're eating sushi.

I can't tell you what I ate 'cause I wasn't thinking about the eating. I was, my mind was going on fire and I was trying to get to know him and understand him and his background. He had grown up in India and when he was young, he had had polio, uh, which is still prevalent in India. So, um, vaccines matter in, in, in many places around the world.

And still it's not always, uh, universal. So then I got into this point of like, well, it's not that big a deal and maybe I don't need to say anything. And then I started to kind of minimize my own. Um, you know, what's wrong with you that you can't deal with this kind of thing? And ultimately I thought, okay, I need to say something.

I need to recognize something. And the way I pre Pres presented it to him was, is there anything I [00:34:00] need to know that would help you be more successful in your job, especially as it relates to, you know, physical movement and. Now that's a good, like, I'm not even sure I probably took two bathroom breaks to figure that out.

Um, and he said to me, you know, uh, that's very, very human that you asked me that question. He said, no one's ever presented the that to me. That way. Normally people just ignore the question or they outright asked me what's wrong with me? And it created a situation for us where we were able to build trust in that lunch.

It helped us to work very well together. Um, and I was glad I took the risk, uh, but it wasn't an easy risk. I think I probably went back in my, my was probably a sweat through my jacket. Yeah. But that sort of, it made our working relationship better. We took a [00:35:00] situation that could be one that I would've avoided as a manager.

We dove into it, we discussed it, and it made him better at his job. It made him feel safer with me. Um, and it certainly made me understand, um, what I could get from him as a, as an employee. 

Jackie Ferguson: That's fantastic. And you're right, sometimes we're not sure, and we talk about this with managers and and why DEI sometimes.

They managers feel like they wanna pull back because people are afraid of saying the wrong thing or offending someone. But what I found in my experience is that if you speak with someone openly and with respect, they have a good response. More often than not. And, um, and it can create an opportunity for vulnerability and sharing and assistance.

Right. And, and I think that's fantastic. Thanks for sharing that, [00:36:00] Greg. 

Greg Morley: I, I, I like the, the, you know, the vulnerability and authenticity and, you know, I, I can say in my own situation that I've made mistakes when I have approached things and not, and when I've made assumptions, I. Then I've said something from an assumption base, but when I've asked the question, I, I participated in an event in Hong Kong called the Gay Games, and we had a group of people that was called a gender inclusion Advisory committee.

And this was like four years ago. And so I was just starting to kind of understand the, the world of gender difference. Um, and I'm still learning. It's, it's complex and super interesting to me. Um. So we walked into a room of, there were like 10 people and they represented all different associations within Hong Kong and different, different parts of the community.

And I was sure I was gonna say something wrong. I was terrified, in fact, and I was [00:37:00] with the, a colleague of mine, a woman that was the, the, the co-chair of gay games. And so I started out by saying she, she and I had talked about this. I started out by saying. I want to, um, thank you all for being here, but I also want to ask for your, your kindness in that I may misgender or misrepresent or mis, uh, title any of you during this meeting.

And it's not because I am trying to be disrespectful, it's actually because I'm trying to learn and I don't wanna restrict myself from the language. I wanna be able to, to, to build on, on my very little competence. So we had the meeting and I caught myself two or three times. I made notes and, uh, I was very heartened because two of the people, three of the people came up after the meeting and they said to me, you know, the way you started the meeting took a lot of the, the, the, um, what could have been emo negative emotion out of the room because they were prepared for us to be misinformed, [00:38:00] saying the wrong things.

I mean, they were ready to kind of sort of come at us. And by having that humility and that authenticity and. It allowed me to do the wrong thing. It allowed me to stay the wrong thing, but because I came at it from a, a perspective of, um, you know, good intention and it, and it worked and I was able to learn more that way.

Jackie Ferguson: I think that's great. And it's such good advice, Greg, because sometimes we as managers, especially those who learned to work, uh, under that like. Regime of, I have all the answers and I don't ever get it wrong. Right. We think that that's how we're supposed to lead and it's not. If we lead with humility and vulnerability and you know, help me understand, then we get a better result and it allows us to take risks.

Right, and, and [00:39:00] not just in business with innovation, but take risks with people. And as you're getting to learn and understand about others, I think that's so important. And you're right. I think that a lot of times people are ready to be defensive because they've had to be. 

Greg Morley: Yeah, you have to protect yourself.

People have had to protect themselves over and over, but man, is it, is it powerful when someone asks you a tough question and you ask them, well, what do you think about it? You know, what, what's your advice for me? Um, before I answer that question, what would you advise me? So if somebody's gonna ask a, a, a tough question, and they come at it from a perspective of their own experience.

I can't read into their own experience. I probably, I'm sure I haven't had that experience that may have created that question. Um, I think it's, I'm much better off knowing what they would advise. Now [00:40:00] as a manager and somebody who's in a executive role, then I have to go back and figure if that's something we can do or not do.

But again, back to my experience in Hong Kong of standing in front of, of a room full of, uh, housekeepers. Trying to tell them what I think, you know, I want them to hear rather than trying to understand what they need. And me trying to adapt that is, is a different way of doing it and, and managers can be much more successful when they use that technique.

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Absolutely. Greg, you've said belonging is a leadership skill. Tell us what that means for today's workforce. 

Greg Morley: The untold story of inclusion, diversity, and belonging is that it's the ultimate talent strategy and for people who feel that they belong to an organization. You know, you talked, [00:41:00] touched on this earlier, is it's, it's a powerful weapon.

For an organization when somebody feels like, this is my place, these are my people. Uh, why? Because, um, every comp, everybody has a, you know, an employment arrangement with their company, right? I go, I'm the head of hr. They gave me a job description. I do the job. Every company is trying to get the incremental effort, and the companies that get the incremental effort are the ones that win.

I was in an organization a couple weeks ago and you walked into the, it was in London. I walked into the room, they were hosting a, um, um, allyship session for, for women women's allyship session, and I was on the panel and you walked into the room and you could feel that this organization was a winner.

What and why? Because the room was full of men and women. Trying [00:42:00] to figure out how to be build a culture that was going to uplift women in their careers. So no one was getting paid to be there at six or seven at night, but the people that worked in that organization had real feeling of belonging in that organization, had real feeling of ownership of the success of that organization.

And back to the the talent strategy. That organization will continue to address, to attack, attract the best people because the people that work there will ultimately become the best recruiters. You know, it's, it's, I think one of the, one of the unfortunate things about where we are with diversity and inclusion is the companies that are walking away from creating sense of inclusion and belonging.

Are ultimately going to lose because the people, the best people will not be attracted to those companies anymore. The best people wanna work in a place where it's not [00:43:00] nine to five. I feel like this is. You know, uh, I, I hesitate to use the word family because it's not a family and a family, but a sense of family, a sense of belonging.

And again, why, you know, the data shows those companies where they create a deep sense of belonging, get a better incremental effort out of people. And those companies are more financially successful 

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Because they have a shared purpose and shared values. I totally agree. Greg, what gives you hope right now in the inclusion space and what do you still think needs to change?

Greg Morley: Uh, I'm actually very hopeful and one of the things that, uh, makes me hopeful is there are so many great people working in this space and so many people that are committed, smart. Driven, focused, um, that whatever [00:44:00] comes their way, they're going to be able to continue to, to address and move forward. What I also makes me very hopeful, and it's one of the things that I think we, we lost a bit in the practice of diversity inclusion over the last number of, uh, years is, and I talk about this in the book, was one of the reasons I wrote the book was I think it's important that we bring.

Everybody back into a conversation about inclusion. It feels to me that inclusion as a practice became very exclusive. And, and what do I mean by that? Um, it, it means that we started to use language that sometimes even we as practitioners didn't understand. Uh, and that confused people. And I think people start to check out if people don't see themselves represented in the work.

They also don't have a reason to engage in it. So this period of time gives me hope because I think it's an opportunity for us to [00:45:00] widen the spectrum, bring everybody into the conversation, remind people why inclusive companies and companies where there's a sense of belonging and strong values are more successful.

And I think that that's gonna help us to overcome and continue to push through this period. The reality is a lot of the people that do this work. Are already in groups where they've had to fight for their space. And this is just another fight for the space. But, um, I think there's an opportunity now for us to fight for the space, um, in a way that allows for the space to grow.

Jackie Ferguson: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Greg, what do you want to leave our listeners with today? This has been such a great conversation and I'm so appreciative. What would you like to leave with today? Final words? Well, 

Greg Morley: so I, I think it's important for, um, all of us in leadership roles or even people that are, you know, [00:46:00] waiting the tables, parking the cars, uh, doing the work.

Every day is to be hopeful because the, the world is a tumultuous place, but the hopeful people are the ones that, uh, that, that get the benefit. And so we have to continue to be hopeful, um, even when it feels like there is no reason to be hopeful. And I'm inspired by many people that continue to pick themselves up and continue to, to, to fight forward.

I think the second thing is, as I said, try and try and try and stand in the shoes of other people every day. Try to learn from people that you're interact with that may be in a different, living in a different world than you are. I think that makes us all better humans. Um, and I think that makes us better professionals.

And I think the last thing is married with that is continue to challenge yourself and learn. Because the world is changing very quickly. Um, but [00:47:00] that's an exciting prospect. There are many things on the horizon that will allow us to do things better, to connect better, um, but, you know, get out of your bubble, learn things, read things that, that maybe are challenging you.

Um, and I hope that, uh, somehow through the process of the book that I wrote, that there's a, that there are lessons in there that people can take. Away. I tried to tell stories in a very, uh, easy way to digest and an easy way to then to apply them to their own world. And I, uh, it's not a political book.

It's not a, it's not a, a wonky book. It's not a five steps to be a better manager book, but it's something that I think is very approachable and allows more people to come into this conversation and again, ultimately understand why it's important. You build an inclusive organization where there's a great sense of belonging because it matters to the bottom line.

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Such great advice. Greg, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation and I appreciate your [00:48:00] time. 

Greg Morley: Well, thank you and I'm really blessed to, uh, have the time with you, Jackie, and, uh, look forward to keeping in touch. 

Jackie Ferguson: Absolutely. Greg Morley reminds us that belonging isn't just a buzzword, it's a leadership imperative, whether you're leading a team or leading yourself.

Inclusion starts with empathy, intentionality, and the courage to connect, to learn more about Greg's work, his book Bond, or to. Explore the bond method. Visit greg morley.com or connect with him on LinkedIn. And as always, if this conversation made you think, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Greg, thank you again.

This has been a great conversation. 

Greg Morley: Thank you, Jackie.

Jackie Ferguson: Thank you for listening to Diversity Beyond the Checkbox. This episode is produced by Walk West. If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with someone who inspires you and leave us a review to help others discover the show. Follow us on Instagram or LinkedIn to join our growing community [00:49:00] of change makers.

Until next time, keep pushing boundaries and building a world where everyone belongs. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.