Thriving Authentically: Breaking the Mold in the Modern Workplace

Jackie - 00:00:10:

You're listening to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox Podcast, brought to you by the Diversity Movement. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, speaker, and human rights advocate. On this show, I'm talking to trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share their inspiring stories and insights on business inclusion and personal development. Thank you for downloading this episode. I am truly grateful for you. Enjoy the show. Thanks for tuning in to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox Podcast. I'm Jackie Ferguson. My guest today is writer, editor, and my friend, Amber Keister. A native of St. Louis, Amber has worked at newspapers and magazines throughout the South, including the Raleigh News & Observer and the The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. She is a certified diversity executive and content strategist at the diversity movement. Today, we're flipping the script, and I'm in the interview chair for our topic, shrinking in the workplace, the myth of imposter syndrome, and how to thrive professionally. Amber, welcome to the show.

Amber - 00:01:22:

Thanks, Jackie. I am so excited about this conversation and I just so appreciate the opportunity to be on your podcast. This is so exciting. Thank you. I'm so glad to have you. So let's get started. I love this topic. So let's start with a level set. The subject of our conversation is shrinking in the workplace. What do you mean by that? What does that mean to you?

Jackie - 00:01:52:

So in the workplace for certain people and underrepresented people, marginalized professionals in the workplace, They often can't bring their full selves to work. They are often put in a position where they can't express their voices, their ideas, their ways to problem solve, ask their questions. And they can't be... Who they are. They can't bring their challenging questions and challenging ideas into the rooms if they're even in the rooms. And so shrinking in the workplace is a way to be palatable, right, for underrepresented individuals because there's so much criticism and then, you know, issues with repercussions for bringing that full self, right? And so when you think of being assertive in the workplace as a Black woman, that's often thought of as aggressive, right? And so an aggressive is negative. And so then you're not invited into those rooms. You're not asked for your thoughts and ideas and opinions and questions. And that's problematic. And we need to understand. Stop doing that, right? And then we also, as leaders, need to create environments where people feel comfortable bringing themselves into the workplace and all of who they are, because we add value. Each of us as an individual adds value in any room that we go in based on our experiences, based on our knowledge base, based on who we are as individuals. And, you know, I certainly have shrunk in the workplace during, you know, the first part of my career for 20 plus years. And so, um, We need to be in situations and environments where we're comfortable bringing who we are into the workplace.

Amber - 00:04:06:

So I'm so glad that you mentioned your experiences in the workplace. And it's clear that this topic really resonates with you. Do you mind sharing a story of... How this Yeah.

Jackie - 00:04:24:

So there are lots of stories, Amber. You know, again, it's been, you know, it's the first 20 years of my career, right? That I felt that I had to shrink in the workplace as I was learning and growing and becoming an expert on different topics and then doing the work, right? It was often I'm the one that's doing the work, but not the one who gets the questions, not the one who gets the seat at the table to explain the work. And I find that that is the case for many underrepresented people where they have the knowledge base because they did the work, but it's someone else's voice at the table. And situations for me just... Not being asked my thoughts and not being given space for my questions. Also being neurodiverse, not given time to process all of the information and form my thoughts and in a way that makes sense for me and then given space to share it, right? When we ask for questions at work, right? We're saying, Content, content, information, information. Anyone have any questions? Nope. Okay. Right? Or... Or it's the same folks that have... Something on the ready because they feel they need to contribute to the conversation, but we're not giving space for people who are new to contributing, right? So are younger professionals in the workplace or are not used to contributing, but might have something very important to add or people that I call processors, right? And that's the people that really like to think about, okay, what is all this information that I just heard? How do I feel about it? What questions do I have? Do I have all the information? What information do I need, right? So there's this whole conversation that we as processors are having in our heads and managers who don't make the space in those meetings for silence. I know that's a word that people in meetings hate, But you really need to give space for silence so that people can process the what their thoughts are, what their questions are, what their ideas are. What the risks may be that they can bring up. And so you want to give space for that. And to do that, Amber, you really need to create an environment of psychological safety or your employees will not feel that they have the space or the license to contribute.

Amber - 00:07:16:

So you've given us a couple of practical tips about... Letting the silence just be in a meeting. You've talked about establishing psychological safety. So in the workplace between managers and managers, they're, direct reports. So I want to just expand on that question a little bit. Are there specific ways that coaches and mentors can help young leaders, especially those from underrepresented communities, overcome the self-doubt and quiet the negative talk? Because You know, if I'm in a situation where I'm being spoken over or my ideas are being You know, my ideas, I've-

Jackie - 00:08:08:

Hijacked. And suddenly I'm here.

Amber - 00:08:09:

Right. Yeah, I'm hearing them coming from another person's voice. Yeah. That has an impact on me as a leader. How can coaches and mentors... Overcome those doubts.

Jackie - 00:08:25:

So Amber, I think you hit it on the head. We often, when you said coaches and mentors, we don't often have coaches and mentors. We have managers, right? And what we need are coaches and mentors. I think that if we are provided... Mentors in the workplace, people to look up to, right? When you're looking at the org chart, if you don't see... Women on those top lines, if you don't see culturally diverse people on those top lines, if you don't know that there's LGBTQ plus individuals on those top lines or people with disabilities or whatever the identity groups that you identify with. You don't know that. That that company is for you to excel and move up. And so you want to be able to see that. You want... Managers that do coach you. And create those spaces where they're pulling your thoughts and feedback, especially again, as new professionals, especially as culturally diverse professionals or women. And it's just so important to have individuals that are looking to pull that out of you. And you can do that in a number of ways. One is to give space to contribute. So not everyone feels comfortable in a big group setting, sharing their ideas. And so are you providing space in your one-on-ones to circle back on those topics? Are you providing a way for people to send you their thoughts and writing? Be objective is to get the information no matter how you get it, how that employee feels comfortable sharing it. There are good ideas that you're missing if you're not giving space for that. I would say... You want to give space in meetings for reflection, right? So go ahead and give that quiet space. I know that it feels uncomfortable at first, but that's something that we and our team have leaned into. We often have quiet space and give moments for people to speak. And I can even see on my team's faces when someone has a thought or a question and I'll ask them. And it's so important. And then pulling, right? If I said, Amber, do you have anything to add? Or what do you think about this? Or does this timeline make sense? Or there's so many questions where you can pull quick information from your employees and get their thoughts. You know, organizations where their managers don't do that are missing out on innovation. They're missing out on ways to problem solve, you know, to start new projects. And it's unfortunate, you know. A lot of times we're listening to the voices with the... The biggest title or the, the people that love to have a comment in every single meeting and you're, which we all can, you know, think of a person like that, that we've worked with in our, in our careers or a handful. Yeah. But really, you want to pull from those quiet employees that are very thoughtful because they're thinking a lot of different things and you will miss out on amazing input if you're not giving them space to do that. Amber, I would say the other thing is, you know, for employees, you know, it's important that you recognize and believe and tell yourself that you've got value in that room. And begin to speak up. Because if you as an individual do it, you can encourage others to do it as well. And that can be helpful.

Amber - 00:12:19:

Yeah, thank you, Jackie. Those are, that's great advice. So I want to talk a little bit about taking risks yourself and also as a manager, encouraging young leaders on your team to take risks themselves. So one of the things that I know you do a lot, and it's so wonderful, is that you really push people on your team to accept stretch assignments. We've talked about this. One of the best things and most powerful things a leader can do is to tell one of their direct reports, you've got this. I have confidence in you. So I want to invite you to talk about an experience where somebody did that for you. Can you describe a stretch assignment that you did? Were voluntold for or that you pushed? To get, and maybe there was some unease at the beginning, but it was, but it turned out to be something that was a pivotal moment in your career.

Jackie - 00:13:32:

Absolutely. And there are two actually, Amber, that I want to share. Before I share those though, I want to talk about imposter syndrome. Because that is something that prevents us as individuals, as women, as culturally diverse people, as underrepresented people to... Not reach for those stretch projects and say yes to those stretch projects. You know, with imposter syndrome, 70% of people, studies show, have experienced it. But especially, you know, the thing with imposter syndrome, it... It's a very real feeling, but it's a term that I want to move away from because we're putting blame on the individuals without acknowledging the historical and cultural context that are foundational to how it manifests. And so we have these feelings of, you know, I don't know if I can do this or what if it doesn't work, right? And the thing is, we have to push ourselves and we have to be pushed, right? And we need those people in our lives that will do that for me. There are two things that come to mind right away. And that's one in starting the diversity movement, which was not starting a company. It was building a course. I volunteered to build the course kind of, I was like, okay, maybe I can probably do this. And it was Don, who's our CEO, that said, yes, you can do this. And it was a huge project and one that I had never done anything like, and there was lots of learning. And I had a great partner to help me in that in Kayla Sosa and But we made lots of mistakes and had the timeline wrong and the budget was wrong and But it was a lot of learning. And in the end, I remember one of our current clients was testing this course, and I was terrified because I was like, if they don't like it, it's on me. And, you know, having spent my whole career making other people look good and you know, being behind the scenes, It didn't fall on me, right? There was a lot of responsibility on my shoulders, but the spotlight wasn't on me, which was a very different feeling. And now all of a sudden the spotlight is on me to deliver this thing that's either good or it's not good. And I remember sitting in Don's office and having Sharon Bryson from NCACPA come on that call. She said it was good and she wanted to license it for her association. And I started to cry in the meeting, which is another thing that is like, okay, now she's showing emotion in the workplace, which is another thing that as Gen Xers, we're like, mm. You're not supposed to do that, right? But I was just so excited and relieved. That the work was good. And that course led to the creation of a company, which is awesome. The next thing, I'm going to talk about another Sharon, actually, is Sharon Delaney McCloud. So she was also one of the folks that helped start the diversity movement. And so Sharon was that person that... Said, you have a voice that needs to be heard. And- And I said, why? Because I was used to being in the background. And so I took one of her professional development public speaking workshops. And it was terrible, Amber. I had to share what my name was, what my title was, and what I did at the company, which you think a person would know. Pretty much, you know, like the back of their hand. It was, I knew what I did, right? Right. So anyway, I got up there and I was like, I said my name and my title and then. What I did and I started to get really rambly and repeating myself because I didn't quite know how to land the plane and I was terrible. And then she said... This was probably a couple of months later. I signed you up to speak at the Raleigh Chamber DEI Conference. Which is a very highly attended conference. And it was in 2020 during COVID-19. And I said, why would you do that? And so, um, And I was petrified, Amber, leading up to it. So I had to do a... Privilege Walk. The goal was for me to do a privilege walk in person, and then there was COVID-19. And so I had to... Changed that over to a virtual privilege walk. And what was that? And what did it look like? So I was good at creating stuff. So I... Made this virtual privilege walk. And then I had to deliver it. And I was petrified. I didn't sleep for probably a week before. The night before, I was up all night. I joined the conference, which was a great conference. And I. Could not breathe. And then I said, okay, I have to do this thing. And I delivered it and it was a very highly rated session within the conference. And as you know, we do the privilege walk every year publicly, and then we do it for organizations all over the world. But that was, I would never have done that if Sharon hadn't pushed me in that direction. And The thing that I want to say about imposter syndrome is You know, there are so many... Reasons that we can say no to things and say, we're not ready and now is not the time. But nobody's ever really ready. And when people are doing things for the first time, you know, People have a... An unrealistic expectation of themselves to be perfect. And that's one of the things that messes us up. And another thing that we have to realize, Amber, is if we know a lot about any topic, We know more than most. And so you're going in with a level of credibility based on what you know, And the only one that's doubting you is yourself. And so we just have to keep saying yes to things and trying things and putting ourselves out there for things. And as leaders within organizations, we have to create environments where our employees feel that they can contribute, that they can try things. One of the things that we also don't like to do is... Do things when we don't know the outcome. Right. Especially as underrepresented women, as a black woman, There are studies that show that we're criticized more harshly for mistakes than our counterparts. And so I don't have space to mess up. I don't have space to not be reliable in the room, right? And so, and if that's how we're socialized, then I'm not going to... Volunteer for those stretch projects because I'm not sure of the outcome. And that's not the environment that we want to create for our employees. We want to create those, you know, that level of psychological safety where it's like, okay, I'm going to try this thing. I'm going to do my best. I'm going to ask for help. I'm going to do the research that's required, and we'll see how it comes out. If it doesn't come out the way we want, I'll get help to move it along. And we as leaders, it's incumbent upon us to create those environments where our employees feel excited about trying something new and trying something hard. And, um, You know, unfortunately in a lot of organizations and certainly in my early career. That was not the case.

Amber- 00:22:44:

Thank you for that, Jackie. So many things that were going through my brain while you were talking, but I did want to just add, and maybe you know the statistics better than I do, but what is the statistic that says that women apply for jobs when they know, when they have 90% of the job qualifications, whereas men apply for jobs when they only have half of the qualifications, something like that. Do you remember the exact numbers? But while you were thinking about that, that is a real thing.

Jackie - 00:23:18:

Amber, that's so right. Mm-hmm.

Amber - 00:23:21:

So I guess my point in sharing that is that, yes, imposter syndrome is internalized. It's a mental obstacle, but it's also based on real situations and real feedback that we get in the workplace as women leaders, underrepresented leaders. So I want to make very clear that even though imposter syndrome is... Mental, there are actual real events that feed that syndrome.

Jackie - 00:23:58:

Amber, you're 100% right. Yeah. 100% right on that. So that statistic that you mentioned, it's women need to feel 90% comfortable that they can do all of the requirements of the job. And men need to feel, I think it was like 55% to 60%. Which makes a huge difference in the jobs that you're applying for. Right? Once I see, oh, I've never done that. I might not apply for that job. Whereas a male counterpart is going to say, I can learn it. And then they're going to go ahead and apply for that job and then might get it. Right, and now they have this elevated title on something that I could have learned right? But because I said, oh, I've never done that before. I'm not exactly sure what that is. Now I'm not applying for the job. And it really creates a gap in experience and in pay. Right. And so that's an important note.

Amber - 00:25:09:

Yeah. Yeah. So it's a thorny topic. And I just really don't want to blame the person who is experiencing these doubts. I want to be very clear about that. So let me flip that. What can... Leaders do or people who are in power in organizations do to create an environment where people feel comfortable taking risks, they feel comfortable failing, they feel comfortable asking for help. What can leaders do to create an environment like that?

Jackie - 00:25:50:

Yeah, I think first, sponsorship is important, right? So before you can take those big risks and have those big projects assigned, you need somebody that's advocating for you in the rooms that you're not. And so having sponsors within the organization, especially for those underrepresented professionals that sometimes don't get every opportunity, right? For women, there's so much, oh, she's got kids at home, right? And so they don't get that stretch task. But a lot of men have kids at home, right? Then they're taking care of their children as well. And so you need that person in the room to say, oh, no, this person has earned this opportunity and we're going to give it to this person. And that's important. So that's where you start. The next thing is collaboration. Because you don't have... That courage in the workplace. Right away. So working alongside a leader that is working with you, that is problem solving with you, that is going through it with you, allows you to borrow a little bit of courage. And I think that's important as you get started. And then finally, just providing space for help, right? It's scary to be the one responsible. And so especially for inexperienced leaders or professionals and people that are doing things for the first time or taking the lead for the first time, having a partner that they can work with is super important.

Amber - 00:27:38:

Yeah, I love what you talk about collaboration. And just I remember just in my own career how important it was. When I was tackling a new task to have somebody who I could call on and say, just a phone call, Hey, I'm not sure how to do this thing. Can you put me in the right direction or give me some feedback?

Jackie - 00:28:02:

Or, I mean,

Amber - 00:28:04:

it could be a story I've written or a project that I'm working on. I mean, just having somebody and it doesn't even, and the thing is is it doesn't even have to be the person who, in your organization, I mean, having that trusted, confidant or mentor who knows you professionally can be a huge help. I just know that that there have been times when I've called people and said, hey, there's this opportunity at work, should I apply for this job? And, and yeah, you know, to a one, it was, yes, Amber, you could do that.

Jackie - 00:28:47:

All right. You know, Amber, one of the things Dawn says a lot is you need to curate a personal board of advisors. Yes.

Amber - 00:28:56:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:28:57:

And I love that. It's so true. And borrowing courage is okay. You need that friend or that mentor that's going to say, yes, you can do that. You've got the skills for that. You can learn these one or two things and do that. So for every professional and every person, I think, It doesn't matter what you do. You need to have a personal board of advisors that provides you insights and courage and support and encouragement and knowledge, no matter what it is that you're doing or want to accomplish. I think that's important for every person.

Amber - 00:29:41:

You're so right. You're so right. So we are almost at the end of my questions. And I love this question because it goes back to what you were talking about. You mentioned in passing that ability to show emotion in the workplace. And, you know, I'm a woman of a certain age. And when I was coming up I mean, if you got upset or angry or started to cry, you excused yourself and went to the bathroom to get a hold of yourself. Get yourself together.

Jackie - 00:30:18:

Right. That's right. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Amber - 00:30:21:

And so, in fact, we talk a lot about authenticity, but for so long, authenticity was seen equals... Unprofessionalism, being unprofessional. And not appropriate leadership behavior. But... But Lately, we've been seeing a shift.

Jackie - 00:30:46:

Help.

Amber - 00:30:48:

And I know in your leadership style, you are a very authentic leader, and I so appreciate that. So you, in so many ways, you have shown empathy and understanding in the workplace. You're not afraid to be angry. You're not afraid to say, hey. Right. I'm really struggling today. Give me some grace. For other leaders who are struggling with this, how can leaders balance being true to their identity while still being professional? Where is that balance? How have you found that balance?

Jackie - 00:31:31:

I think that that's a great question, Amber. Um, I think that one, you need to establish... A level of reliability that you are and trust with your, with your team. Once you have that, I think that showing passion or compassion or, you know, you know, anger in some cases, certainly with some of the things that have occurred in the last three years in the world. There have been a lot of emotions that I have felt and expressed in the workplace. But I think that allows you to, I think there's a level of vulnerability that's good as a leader and it allows your team or gives them permission to. Be that same level of authentic. Right, to say, you know, I'm really excited about this, or I'm struggling today, or, you know, I need a moment or, um, This is frustrating to me. And all of that is okay. Ultimately, you want to be the type of leader who helps your team solve problems. And you want to be the type of leader that listens. And if you establish that, with your team and establish, again, that trust. And that, that, environment of safety, then it's okay to express what you're feeling or who you are or, you know, talk about the things that are exciting to you or frustrating to you, and that's okay in the workplace. It certainly wasn't when we were starting our careers, right? You had to be like... Leave that stuff at the door, right? Wasn't that the quote?

Amber - 00:33:32:

Especially for women leaders, especially women leaders.

Jackie - 00:33:36:

Exactly right. Absolutely. And so I think. With as much time as we spend at work. And as much time as we spend with our team, You know, a lot of people say, you know, my work family, right? But really, we just need to be... Ourselves. And we need to encourage other people to be themselves and to not have it perfect all the time, but to have a certain set of values that are the same. Our team works hard. We value collaboration and helping each other. But we also give each other space to go through life. Right? This is only one part of our life. And there are other things that can affect how we're feeling that day or that week, and that's all okay. You have to be the type of leader that makes that Okay. By modeling that in the workplace.

Amber- 00:34:45:

I think what you said is so important. A couple of things I just want to touch on before we sign off, and that's – Leaders are essentially problem solvers. And leaders can't solve problems if they don't know they exist.

Jackie - 00:35:02:

Mm-hmm.

Amber - 00:35:03:

And the only way that you can get your team to share those problems and those challenges, maybe it's challenges to productivity, maybe it's personal challenges, is to create a safe space so that people feel comfortable. Coming to you and sharing those problems.

Jackie - 00:35:27:

That's exactly right, Amber. You have to have those relationships. I agree.

Amber- 00:35:32:

Because, and ultimately, I mean, we're talking about touchy feely soft skills, but ultimately, these are skills, being your authentic self, showing emotion in the workplace, taking risks, showing, you know, lifting people up. All these things are personal relationship building qualities, but yet they are so important to high functioning teams and effective, sustainable organizations.

Jackie - 00:36:06:

Absolutely, Amber. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Amber - 00:36:11:

Well, Jackie, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you again for letting me crash your party on diversity beyond the checkbox. This conversation has been so much fun.

Jackie - 00:36:23:

Thank you, Amber. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become a part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, and TikTok. This show is proudly part of the Living Corporate Network and was edited and produced by Earfluence . I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.