DEI Learnings from Season 5

Jackie Ferguson - 00:00:11:
You're listening to the Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast. I'm Jackie Ferguson, certified diversity
executive, writer, human rights advocate, and Co-founder of The Diversity Movement. Last season, I talked
with trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who shared their inspiring stories, lessons
learned, and insights on business, inclusion, and personal development. So as we look forward to season
six, I hope you'll enjoy some of my favorite moments from season five. And of course, if you hear a piece of
a conversation that you missed, be sure to go back and listen to the full episode. So there are lots of ways of
thinking and communicating where those people get left behind that have amazing things to say and
contribute because the people who, you know, their natural inclination is to speak quickly, process quickly
are the ones doing the talking, right? And they don't give space for people who need that extra moment to
process, to think through, to, you know, formulate how they wanna say something. And organizations and in
meetings specifically, you need to really give space for that because you can miss out on some amazing
ideas, amazing innovations from a lot of your employees. Yeah.
Elaine Montilla - 00:01:37:
Something that I wanted to share that I know a lot of, especially women go through today and minorities. We
already feel uncomfortable because people around the table do not look like us and do not sound like us. So
we already be dealing with that. I have an idea and I want to say something, but I feel so intimidated by this
table, especially if it's mostly men, that it takes me a minute to tell myself, go ahead and say it. You can say
it. And then when we start to say it, people are so impatient because either you have an accent or you're
taking longer because you're trying to translate. And that is what is discouraging a lot of, especially women,
from going into tech. That we are not given the space that we need. At the beginning, it's not forever
because with practice you become more confident. And that is keeping women out of tech and is making
them leave early.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:02:37:
And it's so important for those of us who are around that table to be allies and to be advocates for those who
don't speak up as much, but to just give space by saying, you know, Elaine or Jackie, is there something
that you'd like to add? Or what do you think? Right? And sometimes it can be just simple as that. So thank
you for sharing that Elaine. So, Kelly, let's talk about your experience in these male dominated sectors. What
advice do you give to people who are underrepresented in moving into. Any sector or industry or business
that. You know, were there one, a few or the only, what's your advice for them?
Kelly Cooper - 00:03:29:
Well, I think it's important to have a strong network of others like you to keep your resilience. Because it is
wearing as this sort of, I would say social transformation occurs. I think in society in general, we're going
through a massive social transformation. So recognizing we're kind of going from one way of being to
another, and we're in the middle of that in this place and time. We need to have resilience on getting through
as we make it to the end goal that we all desire on this issue. So they, you have to have that. You have to
have allies. You know, inside. Senior allies would be a bonus, you know, creating that mentorship dynamic.
And in some organizations, they have employee resource groups. Which are really helpful for getting a
voice, a larger collective voice, to any issues that are of concern so that you can not only give input to senior
management, but also senior management can benefit from your perspective as it relates to any product or
service that they're trying to deliver. More broadly to customers or clients.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:04:47:
You said, that's what you're really passionate about is the culture. But a lot of leaders make the mistake of
focusing on recruiting diverse talent without laying that foundation of what happens when they arrive? Are
you prepared to make sure that they're feeling valued and welcome in the situations every day as they
navigate their work experience? And if you're not, then you're not ready to do the recruiting part without
laying the foundation in your organization of what that looks like for them when they get there. So I just
wanted to stop and point that out because it is so important.

Guest 3 - 00:05:25:
That is such a good point. So we have talent representation, we have that culture bucket, but the next
bucket is really our external community. How are we partnering? What are we doing in the community to
make sure that we're being thought leaders, that we're helping other companies who are trying to figure this
out? And that looks like working with, we just joined this coalition that's around investing in women, wake
women in tech, and how do we invest and make sure we have more women locally in the tech space here?
It's like doing that external community work. And then the last one, and I think it ties it all together, and this is
kind of a pillar that goes across, is data and accountability. You have to be able to understand and measure
what's happening. And I mean measurement, not saying, oh, how many people, what does our
representation look like? That's the question. That's one way to measure, but this work is more than just
measuring. You can't put it just into representation numbers. It is truly trying to find those metrics. That's a
lot of what we're doing now when you talk about the belonging piece. When we talk to our employees and
we do internal net promoter scores, what are we hearing? When we're seeing people exit, what is that data
saying? When we're looking at who's getting promoted, are looking at pay equity, what are we seeing?
Where are there gaps and are there trends that we have to fix? And so that data and accountability piece, I
think, is critical on all aspects, but especially when you're talking about that belonging piece to truly
understand what the employee experience is.
Guest 4 - 00:07:08:
And I know many people are kind of done talking about the business case, but I will never be done talking
about the business case because at the end of the day, there is a positive correlation between diversity and
inclusion and particularly belonging and engagement, productivity, and the bottom line. Organizations are
seeing that more and more over the past eight to 10 years in particular. And there's so much more pressure,
Jackie, on organizations of any type. I'm now running a nonprofit, as you know, but I come from the
corporate sector, really, it's three drivers. It's number one, it's the talent that organizations are trying to
attract, right? There's some data out there that tells us that 80% of job seekers are looking for organizations
that care about diversity and social impact more broadly, more than any other factor. And that's a huge
number. It's something that it's very important for us to consider. The second are clients or customers.
People want to spend their money and work with organizations that care about diversity and inclusion
because they know, right? They want to work with organizations that care about it and actually operate in it
knowing that that's how you get the best solution. And then thirdly, which I find fascinating, not everybody
does, this is the number is part of me, is investors. Investors want to invest in organizations that care about
diversity and social impact. And we know that for a fact because impact investing as an industry is at the
moment about 50 trillion US dollars assets under management growing at 25% a year. And so responsible
investment is on the rise. And so if you're an organization and you're not paying attention to your talent, to
your customers and your investors, that's going to be a real problem for the bottom line.
Chelsea Williams - 00:08:56:
For one, we want to reimagine. Career and work. How we've been doing career, how we've been supporting
young people and thinking about career, you know, it's expired. We've got to think about some more
innovative ways to help them understand career is more than a resume and a cover letter in terms of
preparation. And especially students from diverse backgrounds, racial, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation,
and the like, a few examples, we need to be able to have those students understand some of these socio-
emotional impact that careers have, exposing them to career pathways. That maybe they never heard of
before, but if they're exposed to it early on, we change the trajectory or the choices that they make as one
example.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:09:43:
Absolutely.
Chelsea Williams - 00:09:44:

So it's that type of work, Jackie, that we're really into. And I think my final point would be, On the talent
development and retention side, I'm working with employers. I am very passionate in focusing in on manager
capacity and capabilities. And how do we start building? Knowledgeable, confident, competent managers,
leaders of people in organizations because I'm continuously seeing that that is the area of opportunity no
matter what sector or industry to make sure we're building safe, healthy, innovative, and collaborative
workplaces.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:10:24:
Chelsea, you're spot on with that. In the work that I'm doing. A couple of things, right? So if we think about
the great resignation, which is occurring right now, it's because people are changing the way they're thinking
about work. And what's important to them. And that's every generation, right? This is across our employment
industry altogether. And so, you know, people are thinking, you know, What's important to me? What are my
passions? How is this aligning with that? How do the values of this organization align with my values? Right.
And they're asking themselves these questions and making decisions based on whether they've got right
answers at that organization or not.
Guest 6 - 00:11:24:
One of the gifts that I think I've just really understood in the last couple of years, it's really ground in many
performing arts, sports, et cetera. High performance is a combination of hard work and recovery. Where we
would work our butts off to be the best team in the country at the end of the game. When your mind is like, I
just want to stop, my body's tired. We had practiced so that we had the discipline when it got hardest to
continue doing our job. And at the same time, and I think LeBron James, for example, sleeps 12 hours a
night, there's lots of study around this that recovery is just as important. You can't just keep grinding. And
the grinding has sort of a cachet right now. I think it's actually the wrong direction. High performance is a
combination of that hard work and recovery. And if you're just as thoughtful about recovery, Then you can be
even better performing when you need to. And I think the pandemic and the current state we're in is really
pointing that out, how important recovery is, because otherwise we spend our time with Adam Grant calls
languishing.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:12:38:
I want to stop there because that is so valuable. In our society today because you're right, we do focus on.
You know, oh, I'm working 60 hours a week every week, like it's like it's a badge of honor. And, you know, in
some cases, we do have those weeks where we're really pushing it.
Guest 6 - 00:13:00:
Absolutely.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:13:01:
But understanding that recovery, especially for those that are, you know, have their own business,
entrepreneurs, especially, right?
Guest 6 - 00:13:09:
Yep.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:13:10:
And so, but the recovery piece is so important. And that's one of the things that we miss. And then we get to
this breakdown point. Yep. You know, and then we've got to stop, right? But how do we intentionally look at

high performance from the hard work perspective and the recovery perspective in what we're doing? That is
really, really impactful.
Guest 7 - 00:13:46:
Jackie, I love this question. The importance of mentorship. And I want to, before we move into that, it's also
to talk about sponsorship and what is the difference and why is that difference important?
Jackie Ferguson - 00:13:59:
Yes.
Guest 7 - 00:14:00:
Mentorship happens, you know, it happens so frequently. Sometimes we not may not even put a label on it.
It's when we go to someone or they help us and they give us advice based on their experience or, you know,
thoughts or that they know us. It could be everything. And I think a lot of times mentorship can even happen
on YouTube, right? I, the lock on my door, uh, you know, broke and I couldn't get someone to fix it. So I'm
on like YouTube and here's someone teaching, you know, you, how to replace the lock on your door. And so
you could think that that's kind of mentorship. I'm not personally talking to that person, but they're giving me
know-how. But it happens, you know, so often we seek out someone that may be a long-term thing that, you
know, we talk about our board of directors and it also may be a very short-term thing. And so it's a very, to
me is a loose term and it can apply to many, many different things and it's how we learn. Sometimes how we
get support. Sponsorship. Sponsorship is the supercharged version of that where a sponsor actually makes
things happen. They're the ones that they identify opportunities for. They're the ones, the sponsor in a
meeting when we're not there says, you know what? I think Jackie would be a great fit for that role. Let's
make that happen. Hey, team, have you met Jackie? Because you should get to know her, right? And let's
think about her for this, this and this. But that person says, you know, Jackie, I think this would be a great
program for you. And when, you know, or a great role for you. And after this role, I think you'll be ready for X.
Let's work on that. So I think about the sponsor as opening the door. They're pulling us through that door.
And you know, they, uh, there's that saying, Hey, when you've made it to the top, make sure to send the
elevator down.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:16:09:
When I think about the word intent, one of the words that I use almost daily is intentional. Because when
you're doing this work in diversity, equity and inclusion, when you're trying to create the culture that you
want, when you're trying to make sure that you're respecting someone that you're interacting with, you need
to be intentional. And so that word is so important. So I love the name of your organization because, thank
you. In order to do things well, in order to do things right, you have to have the right intent and you have to
be intentional about being mindful about it as well.
Omar Harris - 00:16:48:
A good recent example of that, Jackie, is this all the hubbub about Dave Chappelle's last comedy special,
The Closer, right? And for me, my whole problem with this special and a lot of his recent specials has been
what is his ultimate intent? So I think that, you know, you can agree or disagree with whatever the comedy
that it, I think his intention was off. Pitting marginalized identities against each other. And we need to be
working together, not battling each other. And I think he needs to take a look at his intent. He's a very
brilliant person. He's one of the most educated, well educated people in the world. He knows his history, but
he needs to check his intent for speaking. If he does that, then I think that we would see better results. And I
hope he does. I love Dave Chappelle.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:17:37:

I totally agree with that Omar. And I love how you phrase that actually because I've been trying to figure out
like what's been missing for me, right? Cause back in the day, like I was the biggest Dave Chappelle fan and
these last few specials have dismissed the mark for me. And I'm like, what is this about, right? And not
loving all of the, you know, pitting the marginalized identities against each other. And I'm like, what is he
trying to accomplish? But I couldn't put my finger on it. Until you just said that. And I've been having this
conversation and not being able to get there.
Guest 9 - 00:18:19:
I'm really proud of that TEDx because It's already outdated. And I love that because it was such a pain point
for me. At the time I did it in 2019, we were struggling in this country for the basic right to not get fired from
your job just because you are LGBTQIA+, okay? Meaning an employer in almost any city in the land could
just simply say, you know what, I don't like that person. I just found out they were trans. We would have had
no legal ground to stand on. Georgia was one of those states and I live in Georgia. So it pained me to think
that I could be in Atlanta in this wonderful bubble, bubble of inclusivity. Right. I could travel to one of my
favorite cities, Savannah, Georgia. Completely different. So it was really talking about the spirit of a city like
Atlanta. The heart and soul of Atlanta that I think was kind of birthed in the civil rights movement comes from
a space of being inclusive for all. And I feel like that should obviously fit for all marginalized groups, not just
the Mecca for black folks. And it has been a wonderful experience growing up in Atlanta being black and a
woman and gay and LGBTQ, whatever you wanna call it. It's been a great experience, but I know that that's
just simply not how a lot of the rest of this country is. And so that's what that TED Talks was about. But this
year, a law got passed that finally gave us the right to not get fired for something so simple and so basic. So
I am ecstatic that, that TED Talks is already outdated.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:20:38:
Love that. I love that. But you know, it's, it's voices like yours that allowed the spotlight to be on the fact that
this was a real issue, right? Because if you're not part of the LGBTQ community, you're not thinking about
that, right? And you're like, well, of course they don't do that. Of course they can't do that. But the laws on
the books, that's one of the right? Because we don't, we're like, oh, that can't possibly be, right? It should be
this, right? But what are the laws on the books? And then what are you doing? From the standpoint of
advocating.
Guest 10 - 00:21:36:
I am an analyst, I'm in data, I love data. I really derive a lot of joy from being structured, from being someone
who measures stuff, from someone who tries to understand what all that data adds up to. On my passion
side, I'm an activist. I'm very motivated and moved by things that I think are things in the world around me
that I can help influence, that I can help move forward in a positive way. And so with both of those things, I
think, my like, that's my strive like from my profession and from my passion. That's what I'm trying to do. But
in both of these cases, I like to underpin that with my value of prioritizing happiness, that in either of those
cases, whether it's activism or analytics, I feel that activism should should be driven by joy and hope. And
not just rage at the injustice. And similarly, I feel analytics should be driven by joy and adventure and not just
the clinical need for clarity. Because ultimately, whether it's your profession, whether it's your passion, if
you're not happy doing it, or if it feels like a burden, or if it feels like something that actually, pulls you down
because you think there's so much to do, you'll get overwhelmed. And it's harder to then make, make
progress because it, you know, things shouldn't feel like work, they should almost feel like a second nature
to you. And I think that's something that I've worked very hard at prioritizing, because I've definitely been in
those situations where my work or passion almost got overwhelming, where I was just I felt like, oh, oh, no,
there's so many things to do. And I'm not making progress fast enough. But now if I think about it, you know,
I feel like I'm doing it for my own joy. And as long as I'm making progress, as long as I feel I'm having an
impact, that's great.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:23:39:
That's fantastic. You know, I love happiness seeker because that's something that I always advocate that we
have to really take by the reins and make sure that we're doing that for ourselves because nobody else
knows what that means for us, right? Let's talk about race from, this is a topic that's difficult for people to

discuss in general. And people often don't have this conversation or they're stumbling over it a little bit. You
know, as we talk about topics like this or topics around race or racelessness, can you share with us some
strategies around having those conversations? Where do we start with those?
Guest 11 - 00:24:33:
The primary reason why this remains a difficult and indeed tense topic for most Americans is because we
are still insisting on operating within the framework of race ideology. If you are operating from a position of
believing and seeing yourself as being racialized white or racialized black or racialized Asian, you are
automatically bringing with it all that that race supposedly exemplifies. So whiteness has become a
metaphor for being racist. Blackness has become a metaphor for being a victim of racism. There's
something called the so-called Black experience, which is really people saying the experience of people in a
racist society, right? Like the way that we talk about race has become coded and really metaphors for our
way of speaking about racism. And this is why it's so hard to talk about it for people because we are
accepting the, we are accepting the concept and applying it to ourselves and applying it to other people. And
then we can be in our feelings about it. So an alternative to that, that would actually create more meaningful
and generative dialogue would be to create a space where you teach people about all the philosophies of
race. You talk about them, right? You try to get a sense, get people to self-reflect and see themselves in
whatever categories, because even without having the names of the philosophies, all of us holds at least two
of those positions, period, every single one of us.
Guest 12 - 00:26:21:
My family raised me to be someone who was of service to others. And that could, that's, that's infinite. That
could be a lot of things. So I started working in this employment program, helping folks find work. And in that
employment program, the people that we had the most difficult time working with were those who had
records with the criminal legal system, right? Because they would go apply for jobs and either lie on their
applications saying that they didn't have a felony and then get fired two weeks later when the background
check would come back, or they would be honest and have their applications thrown in the trash. Right. And
so at that point, I started thinking about how to subvert the criminal legal system, understanding that like the
school to prison pipeline exists, the foster care to prison pipeline exists, the war on drugs is still an issue.
Right. Why aren't we doing things to subvert all of that? Right. How are we meeting the needs of people
proactively and how do we have an alternative instead of just like throw all these people in jail? And along
the way, I found the word restorative justice. And it's kind of been, I mean, it started with the YouTube
wormhole and then reading books and going to grad school, finding mentors, being annoying and showing
up at training, begging like, Hey, can I do this for free? I don't have any money. I'm a poor grad student
who's driving Uber for a living and being in relationship with folks who are practicing this way, being this way.
They taught me that again, my initial thoughts about this were like, Oh, subverting the criminal legal system,
which is important, but that's where I learned how these are community practices rooted in all of our
ancestry. Right. And how can we acknowledge the like, you know, indigenous folks here on this continent,
right. Practice these ways. They still have kept these ways alive. And how can we continue to make sure
that folks remember, you know, that this is our way of being that will help us be in a right relationship.
Jackie Ferguson - 00:28:17:
Absolutely. And just again, to reiterate what you're saying, it's about the relationship. It's about connectivity.
Right and and it's so often that as a society, we're looking to categorize people and put them in boxes
different from ourselves. But what you're saying, and in so many beautiful languages, right? Is that we're all
connected and finding that way? To be connected gives us more of a. Accountability to each other. Thanks
for listening to some of my favorite moments from season five. Be sure to take a moment to leave a rating
and review, and subscribe so you'll be reminded when season six premieres. Become a member of our
community on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter. This show was edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm
Jackie Ferguson, take care of yourself and each other.